A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping

Starting a new job while moving cities and raising a family - Tina is navigating the kind of life transitions that test even the most grounded leaders. 

As CEO of a nonprofit media organization, she brings a rare perspective on what it means to lead with values while facing the unique challenges Asian American women encounter in the workplace: invisibility, representation, and the pressure to prove worthiness. 

In this Book Therapy conversation, we explore how to maintain joy in mission-driven work, set boundaries that protect what matters, and embrace authentic leadership during times of upheaval. 

A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping by Sangu Mandana and Mother Mary Comes to Me by Arundhati Roy offer unexpected wisdom for finding grounding amid chaos.

A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping:
https://bookshop.org/a/24509/9780593439371 

Mother Mary Comes to Me:
https://bookshop.org/a/24509/9781668094716 

Transcript

Minal 0:11

I'm Minal Bopaiah, your host for Book Therapy, the advice podcast for book lovers. For as long as I can remember, I've been reading books and recommending them to friends when they're stuck or struggling. And with degrees in English and psychology, I'm fascinated by how the right book at the right time can change your life or at least your way of living. I'm also an award-winning author and the founder of Brevity and Wit, a design firm that specializes in culture and brand alignment for mission-driven organizations. And like all my life's work, book therapy uses wit and wisdom to help you navigate life's challenges. Our guest for today is Tina, who is a CEO of a nonprofit media organization. And usually at this point, I would read out the question that the guest has submitted, but I know Tina really well. And we So we're gonna tackle all the things, right? We're gonna tackle all the things. We're gonna be a little bit more free-flowing. Um, and then we're gonna break format, and I'm gonna let Tina speak about what's on her mind and what her question might be based on what's on her mind.

Tina 1:15

Hmm. Okay. So throwing it to me, all good. Um you know, I have been thinking a lot about um kind of the crossroads that I'm at now or transition that I'm in now. I'm starting a new um a new position and leaving an old one, changing cities. So it's a lot of different transitions. And so what's on my mind is just like, you know, all the ways we show up, all the ways we are there for family and friends and colleagues uh when we ourselves are going through big changes.

Minal 1:54

Yeah. I mean, that I think that resonates with almost everyone in America. Oh, is it? Regardless if you're like in middle age or menopause or whatever. There's so many changes happening right now. Yeah. Is your is your question? What is the question? Yeah, I guess like what is the question? Is it how do you how do you show up? How do you keep showing up the way you want to show up?

Tina 2:21

I think um, hmm. Well, I guess I could take a step back. And we talked a bit about just family, shapes of family, that type of thing. Um, of course, that informs all of us in terms of our, you know, just how we take each decade, you might say. Um and I would say right now I'm really uh thinking about how to balance life, how to balance um work and family, and how to be there for the people that I love, um, how to be present. Um my son is three years old and he turned three this past summer. So um I have felt though, um, though I have been doing these pretty challenging jobs the whole time that I've been like, you know, my early parent days, et cetera, um, through my pregnancy, et cetera. I um I do feel like I was able to be present. Like I do tackle both um my personal life and my professional life in a way where I do have pretty sharp boundaries in the sense that like I drop it at the end of the day. I really can put things down. Um but that doesn't mean there isn't a buildup of like exhaustion and stress and just like, you know, um confusion at times. And we're in a moment where um, you know, all of all of nonprofit is feeling it, right? Um and certainly I do feel it within my own industry. Um but I, you know, I balance it with like real serious gratitude for being able to do the work that I do at this time. So, you know, I guess it's it's all the things, Middle. It's all the things all at once.

Minal 4:10

Um, how can I help? Because because I mean, you are, I know you well enough to know that you are very high functioning. The fact that you can drop things, I think puts you in a rare caliber, rare caliber of leader who can actually let things go. Um I can't control all the things. So short of being like, you know, you know, a mystical force in your life that like stops all the external pressures. You know.

Tina 4:37

You want me to come up with a question.

Minal 4:39

Well, I well, only because I mean we you and I can sit here and chew the fat forever, right? For a while. Like if I if I I feel like I will shortchange you because if I don't have a question, how will I recommend a book? Like, what's the book?

Tina 4:54

Yeah, like the book is like give the premise of yes. Um, you know, uh, okay, so I need to come up with a uh a one single question. I guess um, I guess um you know, I I do feel like my I've been doing some pretty challenging jobs in the last um, so this is the third organization that I've led. And um and I do feel like I've been handed some pretty intense assignments, you might say. Um, not always with the structures and support around me, but always, I will say, with an incredible staff that really wanted to do the best. Um and I've always approached that by um like I really think of the people I work with as like um as like the finest that media has to offer, I will say. And um, when I am seeing people in a rut or in a a space that is really tough for them, or maybe they're they're not as productive as they had been, this type of thing, I really try and take the very long view of what they could be doing and what their skills actually serve, um, or where their skills could be maximized, I should say. Yeah. Um, I think I'm a kind of rare leader in a way, um, in that I um I'm like deeply values driven, um, only almost to the point where it can be uh not great for me, you might say. Um and I'm sure that you can relate a bit to this. And so there has been, there have been times when I've thought, well, you know, I derive such deep enjoyment out of my family life, which is also um very difficult because we're sort of scattered about across the country and even internationally. Um that, you know, I've thought, well, you know, this work is great. There are so many things in life. Um, but do I need to be doing this work anymore? Yeah.

Minal 7:06

That's I think a great question that I think a lot of people are asking themselves right now. Yeah. I think there's so much to that. And this is something that I would not have understood in my 20s or even like 10 years ago. I would have been like, of course, you need to do mission-driven work. What else would you do with your life? Like, why would you ever want a job that's not mission-driven, that doesn't have purpose? And yet I think I don't know if it's because of the external environment or because of the age that I'm at and being in midlife, there's sort of a sense of like not that I that I'm that I'm done, but that like I think when you get to a point where you're like, oh, there's fewer years ahead of me than behind me, right? You start to think differently of like, oh, if I only have this much time, how do I really enjoy the time that I have? That's limited, right? Like you start to look for enjoyment and not hedonistic enjoyment, but like real enjoyment. And I think sometimes, particularly those of us who are in mission-driven organizations, the purpose becomes um rather um we're we can be self-punishing about pursuing the purpose at the expense of doing it in a way that brings us joy. And I think when it stops bringing us joy, I think it's good to ask, should you be doing this anymore?

Tina 8:45

Yeah, definitely. Um and I think also like I love the idea of a second career. So um I can't it was fun. I kind of said that in a meeting at at work the other day where people were talking about their second careers, and I let them know, which I think is kind of funny for them when they like have just met their new leader that they're that that person is wondering what their second career could be. But I do really try and bring my whole authentic self to the room. Um right now I'm working remotely, but we'll eventually be in person. And um, they they need to know that like I'm a person who can make mistakes. One um is not asking them to be perfect, but is looking together as a team to like get to this better place, right? That's not a perfect place because we will never get to this um kind of um very hard to define uh um, you know, perfect, I don't know, media place. But I I I think um that we're very um sort of driven as leaders sometimes to not show up in that way. And I really push against that. And um I think a lot, and you know this about me, I think a lot about what it means to be um a woman of color leader, an Asian American leader. I think it is it is an area that I would love to open the box around with I I would love to like talk with you more deeply about that too at some point, because I think that is a space more than more than particular industry, more than particular like age or time in life or number of jobs. It is something that as I as I look around me and I think about um the ways in which um, you know, socially and I guess the ways in which um Asian American women are um asked to lead, but then also prevented from leading in a way. Um because they're sort of there's an invisibility to it too. Um there's a sort of like I think um you might know who this quote comes from, but I was talking to a friend who said um that you know, you're you're a person of color as an Asian American woman or maybe an Asian American person, um, as a leader, you are a person of color until you're at the top and then you're white. And that is really painful. And I have experienced that for sure. Um and also the experience of um being um, you know, brought in um perhaps because um, you know, whoever was hiring felt they needed a person of color, but then not given um not given the trust and not given the uh authority to do the things that I deeply knew needed to change or to make the changes that I I have, you know, really understand at a level that is, you know, aligned with my experience, et cetera. That is, you know, that's something painful. And and it's always that question, right? Minal of like, you know, is it about race? Is it about something else? You know, it's the the part where you don't know or that you're questioned is perhaps the most painful part.

Minal 12:17

Yeah, it's definitely it it's really confusing and if not painful. I think sometimes I just find it to be such an energy suck. I'm like, why do I even have to think about this? There are other leaders who don't have to consider this as like what's being set up against them. And I think and I think for Asian American leaders, it's it is particularly fraught because we sort of have both a privilege and a marginalization in the system. You know, like there, you know, there's definitely you know, if you just Google um, you know, bamboo ceiling, I think it's actually even more East Asians who are seen as invisible when it comes to leadership and really underestimated. And no matter what they do, it's seen as like too assertive when they're East Asian. And actually the the data breaks, I'll I'll put the article in the show notes, breaks this down South Asian versus East Asian. This this stereotype does not apply to South Asians like me. It is actually much more towards East Asians, but at the same time, like there is this general phenomenon of like East Asians are often the largest racial minority in a company and the least likely to be in leadership. Um and the way many of and this isn't well, and then there's like a gender race interaction that's really kind of fascinating. The 19th recently, and I mean by recently, I mean in the last year, they just published an article on the gender pay gap for Asian Americans, and it varies. So we, you know, we all know that like white women make 80 cents to a dollar for every dollar white man earns. For Latina women, it's as low as 52 cents. Bless you. Um I muted.

Tina 14:12

The reveal.

Minal 14:13

I know. But um, so for Latina women, it's as low as 52 cents of the dollar. For Asian women, here's the interesting part the average is actually 91 cents to the dollar. So we out-earn white women, and yet we are not held as the standard that all other women should be emulating. And that's like the Asian invisibility in the conversation, right? That like we're never held to the standard, even if we like if we outperform white women, there's still we still talk about this, like the other races have to catch up to white women, which is which would be wrong because Asian women are actually outperforming on average. But then if you look at the spread, the spread is between different Asian identities between 48 cents and a dollar eight. Which is what I'm saying is like Vietnamese and um Humong and um other, particularly East Asian ethnic, or actually even Nepalese, they're making about 48, 52 cents to every dollar a white man earns. Indian women are making a dollar seven to every dollar a white man earns, and uh uh Taiwanese women are making a dollar eight and eight cents to every dollar a white man earns. So we out-earn white men, and so that's weird, right?

Tina 15:34

Like I think. Yeah, there that's a lot of this doesn't I'm like trying to digest this information, and you're talking this is a study about US salaries, Asian American women. So it's Asian American, okay, okay. Well, I was gonna ask, I mean, it has to must have something to do with like the size of the pool, right? Um meaning that there are so there are fewer Asian American women than white American women.

Minal 16:04

It may be that. Um part of it is also how we get here. Like a lot of Indian women, um, we're here because our parents or or ourselves have come because we recruit we were recruited for um, I mean, sometimes the term is highly skilled labor, but often it's people who already have degrees. And I talk about this actually in my book. I never thought on this on this podcast I'd recommend my book, but actually in the introduction to my book, I talked about- I've read your book. Yeah. But it talks about this that the US immigration system used socialized education in other countries like India to meet their needs for doctors and lawyers and engineers and and and high-skilled labor here instead of educating the people who were already here well through public education, right? So a lot of Indians came here in the 60s and 70s through these like to fill these sort of professional roles, whereas a lot of people who are from Nepal came as like refugees, a lot of people who are like from Myanmar and Burma, they came as, and so the way you get here affects your economic trajectory. Like if you're coming with a degree from another country where they have socialized education, where you don't have to go into poverty to get that degree, you are set, like we're we're not all coming and starting at the same like start line, right? Like you're coming with an advantage. And that's very true, I think, for women who are from India or women from Taiwan. That's not true of women from other Asian countries. And part of it, in my opinion, is this idea of Asian Asia is like 50% of the globe. Like it is too broad a category to explain, like, you know, the nuances of the human experience. And so, you know, like that is what is contributing is the advantages that either the we as women or even our parents had when they got here, right? Like both my parents were physicians before they got here, right? So that sets me up in a way that's different. And and both of them were, and I think part of it also is India and Taiwan um have English medium schools. So they came already fluent in English as a native language with professional degrees. And so people who come with professional degrees but English isn't their native language have a disadvantage. People who come um without professional degrees have a disadvantage, and then people who come as refugees or asylum seekers have an additional disadvantage, right? And so that's what leads to it. And so I think the Asian community is actually a really interesting case study in the structures that either can propel certain people forward or hinder them. And we could allow for a more nuanced conversation about race, but instead, what happens is that difference gets weaponized. And so you end up, you know, and we feel like we're meeting the mark, but we're still experiencing bias. And we want it to be based on merit because if we if we actually did merit-based hiring or merit-based anything, Asians outperform, but then we have all these other things, and so then you end up with Asians who are part of the lawsuit to overturn affirmative action. And that, you know, I think is in retaliation to our experience, but we don't understand that that is such a betrayal of solidarity against other people of other races who are experiencing it so differently, you know. Um, and I don't think it ends up making it an uh even playing field because when we do that, somehow the message becomes that white people were always more qualified and we, you know, like that's how it gets turned around. And I'm like, wait, no, like it doesn't it doesn't work to our advantage, right? It's not like you know, the anti-DEI movement is super into hiring Asians and promoting Asians, like that's not what they're doing, they're not doing it based on merit, right? Yeah, it becomes this very convoluted like um argument that is completely a smokescreen for racism, you know.

Tina 20:29

So the other day I was like, oh, I need to just think about this and understand it a bit more because I'm so busy doing the thing, right? Yeah, leading as an Asian American woman that like I don't have a whole lot of time to be like, though I want to have more time to be thinking about it and like also because pipeline is really important to me. I and I had this background in teaching and um it's like when I meet somebody, um, especially if it is a woman of color who wants to go um, you know, further in their career and lead, um, because I I didn't come from a place where I thought I would um be running organizations one day. Like that isn't something that I aspire to. It's something that I ended up doing and I'm very grateful for that path and the people who mentored me through it. Um, but when I meet somebody, I get like maybe like a little too excited. Because a lot of people, you know, I can't tell you the number of people who I have approached to I've thought, oh, you have a lot of like just great presence, um, smarts, like uh you've got the right ethics uh in place, all of this. Um and I'll approach them and I'll say, Hey, have you ever thought of, you know, you know, taking your career in another direction, right? And um to do uh a little bit more or a lot more leadership. And very often I do get the answer no, like quite a lot. And I think there is a feeling around those jobs are too hard and they put you in difficult positions a lot. That is true, I can say. Um, and that uh that then you become too close to, you know, the main being the man. So there's that, right? Um, but then there's also just that, you know, our workplaces are going through such such dramatic train change in this moment um that for a variety of reasons, right? People say no. And um, in any case, I was I was saying that I was thinking about Asian American leadership in particular. And so I just started Googling for, you know, is there a group, is there a conference? And I found something that happened last year in Boston. So yeah, I guess I guess it might be um something for me to look into. Um, and I'm sure there are many books um that I could be, I could be reading. But I have to tell you, when I am feeling really stressed out, my default is to go to fiction because I do just love fiction and because it is a place that I feel like time slows down for me in my brain, and I can sort of um enjoy what got me into this work in media in the first place, which is the beauty of the written word, which is the um kind of the way a narrative can, you know, be everything and make time stand still like that. So that is my default, is to not go to um, you know, books that maybe reflect too much of the reality that I'm experiencing, but um but bring me to another place where I can um think about like deep meaning um and other things about life that I just that seem to pass by, right? Really quickly if you don't sort of yeah, take a step back.

Minal 23:46

Yeah, well, and I think fiction can be really helpful for showing people like us how to do something without being so on the nose about it. Right. Because part of me is like, I don't, I don't know if we can go and say, like, we're gonna help Asian American and or even Asian American women. Like every time I've joined any sort of affinity group like that, it's like I've always left disappointed. Like it's never good.

Tina 24:15

You've done it first. I don't need to do it. I can check that off the list.

Minal 24:19

Like, I don't know what it is. And I part of me thinks that part of me is like the Asian umbrella is too big. The like there's not an like enough. Um, like the the differences tend to surface like think quicker. Part of me thinks it's that, but part of me also thinks it's like, and you know, God, I can't believe I'm bringing up my book again. But um I really didn't want this podcast to be about my book. That is not what I was paying me for. But and I talk in the book how according to behavioral science, like novelty or or calling attention to something, right? Like really is really great for catalyzing behavior change, but really terrible for sustaining it. And so if you want to sustain behavior change, you actually kind of have to hide it. You have to kind of bake it into the system. And so sometimes I feel like these programs that are very like, we're gonna identify this group and help this group, like that can be great for like inspiration and getting it going, but it's really bad to keep it going because it's not enough of a unifying factor and it's not baked in enough, right? And so the example, the example I often give, and also like that's not how racism works. Like racism and sexism works by proxy. And so the example I often give is like when Biden was in office and during the pandemic, he wanted to create a relief fund for black farmers and he got taken to court and they're like, no, that's racial discrimination, which is technically true because we now have laws since the civil rights movement that say you can't give preference based on race. However, because of the history of redlining, we know that there are certain zip codes that are more economically depressed that tend to have more black people. And if he had created a program that's like, we're gonna give economic relief to the farmers in zip codes that are the most economically depressed, he would have hit a majority of black farmers. And sure, there would have been some white farmers there, but that is working with how the system is designed and baking it into the system instead of calling attention to a group, right?

Tina 26:28

Right, right, yeah.

Minal 26:29

And I think of the same thing for like for Asian American leaders, like it can't be our Asian American identity. I don't think that's what it is. You know, I think it's something else in the system of like, were you given leadership development at any point in your career? Do you even know what it is? Do you know what it's about to do?

Tina 26:47

Before you even see it as a possibility. Yeah, I understand what you mean because it's that whole thing of like, you know, when I go into an organization, one of my first questions is to just see how HR is done, right? Yeah. People that I mean, the the organization goes nowhere without the people. If the people aren't being meaningfully like given resources, um, whether it's training or just a very clear process for onboarding or offboarding, um, you see it, right? And so, I mean, I I I fully I fully endorse that, that it's like working with the structures you have, changing those structures sometimes. Um, and they will ultimately um help bolster groups that you know we would love to see more of.

Minal 27:36

And they might also then include people who were part of dominant groups who also had a similar experience, right? Like it's absolutely psychographics, not demographics. Yeah. I think we need to go for. I think that's a better way. But anyway, but you know, but and and that's why I think fiction is better, because fiction, I think, isn't like people just talking about their identity if it's good fiction, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, so no, I I agree with that. I actually have a lot of fiction recommendations. Here's my question. Yeah. What are are there any genres you're against? Specifically, are you against sci-fi?

Tina 28:11

I'm not against it, but it isn't one that I have you know delved into in with any great depth. Yeah.

Minal 28:21

Okay. And are what is your favorite genre of fiction? Do you have

Tina 28:26

I love books where nothing happens?

Minal 28:30

That's really nice. That's really hard these days to get,

Tina 28:33

but like I love movies where nothing happens. I don't know what it is. It's like um, I I that's not a genre, I don't think. No, um, but

Minal 28:44

it may be a genre. Um, books where nothing happens. That's really, yeah. No, because I so I say my favorite genre recently has been like women who own bookstores. And people are like, that's a genre. And I was like, yes, because there's good and bad versions of it.

Tina 29:01

So long as there's good and bad versions, then it's a genre. Wait, books in which women own bookstores?

Minal 29:06

Yeah, like they is that a genre. I've read at least 10, so I feel like that qualifies as good. Some are good, and some are just like I some of them I couldn't even get through. I was like, no, I have to stop reading it because it's so bad. But it's clearly it is it is not simply a plot point now. I think it's a genre.

Tina 29:26

Okay, okay. Um, I feel like there's there's rom coms that fit that.

Minal 29:31

Yes, right. Yeah.

Tina 29:34

Um, um, so I do I I like I also love books um written by children's authors, but for adults. So there's there's some, yeah, like Tov Jansen, right? The Moomens. Yeah, no, I haven't heard of him. No. Okay. So Tov Jansen wrote The Summer Book. Hmm. I'm gonna recommend that to you.

Minal 29:59

You're like Tina's like, I'm gonna come on and recommend you to Hey, this is what I do with my organizations.

Tina 30:04

This is what I do with your podcast. Um, no, Toe Jansen wrote the summer book, and actually that is the first book I read by her. Now I'm reading some of the movements. I don't know if you can see me on this video, but you know the movements. They look like hi like little hippos.

Minal 30:21

Oh. You've probably seen them on mugs and I haven't because I'm not in like the kid world as much anymore.

Tina 30:28

Well, I started reading this before. I started reading Tove Janssen before um before Kai. So um anyway, the the book is about it's like these little vignettes about the summer a child, I don't know, maybe she's nine or so, um, or even younger. She spends a summer on this island. Um, I think it's in Finland. Um, so the author is Finnish, but then has Swedish descent. There's like a there's a mixing there of Scandinavian backgrounds. But in any case, she's there. Her mother has just recently passed. The father has brought the daughter to this island to spend the summer along with the grandmother. And so it's a lot of the interactions between the grandmother and the young girl. Yeah. And it is about confronting like just like hardship and change and real life and death questions um at such a young age, right? Like you don't see them actually confronting it, but you're feeling it throughout these vignettes. And um it's beautiful. It's just such a wonderful read. It's a short read. It's like um, I don't know, maybe it's like 150 pages. Uh I read it often. Um so yeah. So that's Tove Jansen. Um, if you know Russell Hoban, who um wrote uh some story, story books, picture books about a badger family. Okay, anyway, I will that's the last one I'll do. Um I've read this book Turtle Diary, if you know that one. Um that is a book for adults that this children's author wrote. And it is about um two people who who are looking to release um a turtle um into the wild. Anyway, see, so something does actually happen, but it's so much about the interior monologue, and anyway, so yeah,

Minal 32:37

it's been a long time since like I I admit that um ever since well in recent times, I don't know how to refer to like what's going on. I haven't read as many books that are really about the internal monologue because I've been like the action is what helps me escape.

Tina 32:56

Yeah, right.

Minal 32:57

Like the action is what helps get me out, but at the same time, I don't want disturbing action. Like I don't want like horror, I don't want it to be psychologically disturbing. So it's like cozy comfort sort of stuff. And so the one the one that's coming to mind to recommend to you, um, it's kind of a special, so it's gonna seem a little odd, but it's it's kind of a special one to my heart. It's called A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping. And um it's an adult book. It's written by uh Sangu Mundana, who so this is why it's special to me. I'm not big into like the witchcraft stuff. I know a lot of people are into that. It's but she's she wrote another book called um what was the other one called? Uh The Society of Irregular, the very secret society of irregular witches. That was her first one. And it's very charming. It's not like sort of the witch like gothic sort of stuff. It's like the very charming side of the witch lore that everybody's into. But the reason it's special for me is because Sanzu Mandana is actually, from what I can tell and from what my father has found out, from the same district in India that I'm from, which is this very small district called Kurg. Um, and Kurg is a really lush green area with people who are known for being warriors and um planters and agrarians and you know, really brave. A lot of uh Korgs go into the military, but as somebody who's been so literary, there's never been like um a lit, like we never had like a uh Rabrindana Tagore or like a literary culture. And the fact that there's like a Korg woman who lives in the UK who is writing books who are letter like commercial fiction, like it's just so I'm so proud of that. I'm so tickled by it. I get that, yeah. Right. And and then like it's really great because it's these stories about witches, and like the main character is almost always at least like half Indian, or like, and like she's got a diverse cast, but again, it's like not on the nose, and they're really just talking about this like story about witches and spells and like all these things that because I I find that particularly if you're Asian American, more than if you were like growing up in an Asian country, I sometimes find like I I feel like I can't do anything because it would like be too American, it would or you know, it would betray my culture. And then when you can have diverse characters who are doing the things that white characters have always gotten to do in stories, yes, it's like so thrilling and charming and like you know, and nothing, and it's not trauma porn, which has been the historical like Indian literature of how poor somebody was and how difficult their life was, and like that's why you should read this book. And I was like, no, I want to read about like an Indian character who's a witch who's like into like trying to keep like a bed and breakfast open. That's because we never get the version of Down Abbey, like the whole point of Down Abbey is like the plot is there's a missing tuxedo shirt. I want that with like Asian characters.

Tina 36:27

Okay, I want to read this, so um, I will get that.

Minal 36:32

Yeah, a witch's guide to magical innkeeping by Sankum Mandana. And I'll put the name in the note in the show notes so everybody can spell it. But it's just yeah, I want cozy comfort stories with diverse characters.

Tina 36:47

Well, it makes sense that you come from a small district known for bravery and warriors. Thank you.

Minal 36:57

That's very flattering. Thank you. Yes, I know. And yeah, I yeah, it it was a real trifact because my mom is from Punjab, which is also known for bravery and warriors and the Sikhs.

Tina 37:11

Yeah, written written in your DNA and the stars.

Minal 37:15

And then my dad was a boxer, like it was really kind of a trifecta, like somebody people who know about Korg culture and Punjabi culture, when they hear that me and my brother have a parent from both, they're like, Were you born with swords in your hand? Like, what you just were you were you born fighting? I was like, kind of, yeah, not not so much each other, but like, yeah. So um, yeah, so but but this is not one of those books. This is a very, very charming book that I think you will enjoy.

Tina 37:48

Did you notice that I um today made sure that I was sitting in front of my bookcase?

Minal 37:53

I I did see all that. So for the listeners who can't see, we won't have video. It's okay. Tina has put a staff of books that it's at least two meters high. Like it is very, very it's actually a little nerve-wracking because I can't see the bookshelf that's holding them up. So it just has a pile of books, which is which I also love. Like, there's nothing that makes me happier than walking into a book, like into a bedroom and like the nightstand is just full of books. I'm like, oh yeah, I'll like this person.

Tina 38:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I get it. And I do you have that book by your bedside that you can just pick up and read in any, like you can just kind of you don't have you're not necessarily bookmarking it, but you just will read a passage anywhere. Yeah. And it kind of just makes you happy or at least um calms you down. Like um, I definitely always have that and a rotating cast of books.

Minal 38:47

What's your what's your go-to now?

Tina 38:49

Um, so I've had this book, Woman Running in the Mountains. Um that is about a young woman who um has a baby on her own, so she's a single mother. I think it's set in the 60s, maybe it's the 70s. And it's about her and her relationship with her family. And she has a troubled relationship with her father, and um she um is you know trying to work during the day and um you know, goes through her like the daycare basically that she brings her child to. And it's just um, I don't know, it's like it's one of those books you can just read a passage from and um, you know, you don't need to like necessarily read it in order, which maybe is also part of, you know, the problem with just being very busy is that um I will actually forget um to finish a book. So there's a lot of half-read books around the house. Um The Minor is another one, um, which does a really kind of um surreal book about this young boy who runs away and wants to become a minor. Um, and kind of the unusual characters he meets along the way. So those are some, but um yeah, what's new? What's on your bedside table at the moment?

Minal 40:22

Um Arntha Theroy's memoir, Mother Mary Comes to Me. I mean, Arntha Theroy's writing just opens me up every time and it um yeah, it it does something to me. And her memoir is the first time I've seen uh an Indian, particularly an Indian woman, write about loving a parent that was also abusive in a way that is not about estrangement or cutting off connection, but can acknowledge what happened, right? And and is still really poetic because the way she writes is just extraordinary. Um I mean, I I read God of Small Things, her debut novel, when I was it was 97. I was a junior in college. I was studying in Italy, and it was the first time I've read something that I felt was written for Indians, not about India for Westerners to read. Like it was really written for us. Um and I I've always God, I wish I could write like like she's a writer I aspire to write like, and I never will because my style is so different, but I've never seen anybody use the English language as effectively as she does to like open people up to new ways of thinking or feeling things.

Tina 41:40

And that's a fairly new book, right? Like it just came up. Oh, I do need to read that. Yeah. Okay, so I'll put that on my list too. I'm gonna take that as a recommendation.

Minal 41:51

Yep, we'll put that one too.

Tina 41:53

Um we've only gotten South Asian authors, by the way, you being one of them today.

Minal 42:01

I mean, we, you know, we're like what, a quarter of the world's population in an English-speaking country. It feels like we should be recommended more often than we are. Um, are you ready for your rapid fire questions? Yeah, sure. Okay. What is your favorite book of all time?

Tina 42:21

So um I'm gonna tell you a book that went that was just so significant to me growing up. And it's Alice in Wonderland. Oh, yeah. It is just like the surprises, I memorized the poems. Yeah. Um, I listened to the audiobook over and over again. I mean, there's many audiobooks of it, but this one particular one that I I haven't ever seen since. Um I did look it up once. Um yeah, I I just it was the it was the surprises, the con that this this person, this little girl's just constantly being surprised and like everything turned on its head. And yeah, so uh that's great. Alice in Wonderland.

Minal 43:09

Would you ever want to write a book? And if so, about what?

Tina 43:13

Yeah, I definitely would. I mean, I think there's a couple of things. There is this, I I do really love and I feel so so much gratitude for having been able to do this kind of work in my career of leading people and and like mentoring teams. And um so there is something there about leadership that I would like to write. I don't know if it's a book, maybe it's something else. Um maybe it's a podcast, Minal. I'm not sure.

Minal 43:44

I would I would listen to a podcast, but I would absolutely read a book if you wrote it about leadership.

Tina 43:49

Thank you. Yeah, um, and then I do really want to mine my family history a bit. There's a fair amount of oral history that I have done um that I then put aside, right? Because we do these things, we start projects. So um I went to um the Philippines in 2015. I did a lot of interviews at that time. Um, and um, you know, I've had um relatives who have passed who I got to record. Um, and I don't know if that would probably end up being more fiction than um than kind of like family history. I don't know yet, right? I'm also very interested in the way that my parents came here um in the 60s and their experiences. They came separately. Um and they came separately, so they didn't know each other, right? They met here. And so there's there's stuff there that I want to slow down and think about. I have a lot of deep, hard stuff in my family. And um, you know, we we we do these jobs and our attention gets diverted, but there's something about the way that I operate in my work that is so much grounded in the way that I grew up and what I saw. Um I was influenced both both positively and negatively by my family. I have a you know complicated relationship with them and um am physically very distant from them in this part of my life. And so there's there's part of me that just wants to get back there.

Minal 45:25

Yeah. Um if you could invite an author to dinner, living or dead, who would it be and why?

Tina 45:46

It's so funny. I actually just really like authors at a distance. I know many authors too, and I have them over to dinner as friends, but not as authors. Um well, actually, gives it does a cookbook author count? Yes, absolutely. Um, and I'm right now speaking to you from her neck of the woods. I would love to meet Simeen Nosrat. I'd love to I would just love to meet her. Um, but I I don't know, like, yeah, I'd have to, in terms of like uh an author of the genre that I most likely read, because I don't read a ton of cookbooks, but I flip through them like everybody else does at a bookstore. Um but yeah, just to have a great conversation about food, I'd love to, I'd love to meet her. Um but I think it's smart that you would want to invite a cookbook author to dinner. Like that's like a good dinner. Well, I'm kind of thinking about how the I always aspire to like a great grand dinner party. And then I'm always cooking about four dishes at the same time, and they may or may not go together. So I'm thinking I might get some guidance while this was happening, and maybe they'll bring over their own stash of food.

Minal 47:05

No, it's brilliant. It's it's very, very easy. And you're like, you know what? I'm gonna use this to like just you know, strategically.

Tina 47:14

Thank you.

Minal 47:15

Um, if you had to guess, how many books are in your home?

Tina 47:19

Yeah. Um not many. There's this stack here. So I donate regularly and I am a big library um user. I have um library cards, physical cards, and also digital cards in many different cities. And right now there is a stack of books that I have to mail to another city because they're due. And I'm constantly, I fly a lot and I'm constantly flying with library books. And then, like literally the other day, I handed some books to my friend who was going to be in the city where the books needed to be returned. And he texted me the other day and he said, you know, those books are on their way to, you know, canceling out your fines, basically. So I I probably in this house have, I don't know, 400 books. And I recently donated um uh a big stash of books to my library in another.

Minal 48:19

400 is still a decent, like that's a decent amount.

Tina 48:23

Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And it's mostly fiction. And then um, there were cookbooks that were my husband's. I donated those. Yeah. Because I'm not gonna learn to cook. And he has done, he's a great cook. And uh, they were just taking up space. But yeah, I regularly like take things out of the house. It is my that is it, you know what, you know what, Minal? One of my questions I could have started out with was, how do I organize my house? That will do that next time.

Minal 48:51

I'm not the person to ask that question to you.

Tina 48:53

Yeah, but you might have read a book about it.

Minal 48:56

I have I feel bad. I I have probably have to admit, I feel like I feel compelled to admit this that I actually just hired somebody to organize our garage because I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around it. And it was, I really like it was really great because they came twice for an hour and a half. We sorted through things, they took the stuff away, which is like the big thing that like it doesn't sit there for three weeks, but then they like got containers and they organize and they labeled it. And I realized looking at I appreciated it so much, and I was like, I would not know how to go about the status, like, but it's hard, it's really hard. And actually, actually, on this theme, I have been listening to this podcast. Um, I have to look it up. It is called um Asian Sewist Collective. So sewist is a new word for like seamstress because it's gender neutral. It's like people who are into sewing, but it's yeah, um a col like it's for Asian Asian Americans who are into sewing, but they have a two-part episode on decluttering. Oh, and it's fascinating because they're thinking of it from like the Asian identity and how we all come here as immigrants and we're resourceful, and then like we hold on to stuff, but then we also have to hold on stuff to pass it to like younger cousins so they can use it and like why it's so hard for us to declutter. It's fat like that. Would be my answer to your question about how to organize is listen to that podcast episode.

Tina 50:23

Okay, and it's called what what is it? The word sewist is in it. Asian sewist collective.

Minal 50:29

Okay, and it's good. So it's decluttering with Grace. I think the name of the therapist that they have, her name is Grace.

Tina 50:36

It's uh okay. Okay, wonderful. Wonderful. I will check that out. And you know, I mean, the other thing, right? I think I am actually okay at letting things go. I am the other big question looming in my life, in all of our lives, is like, how to better recycle or get rid of things, right? That is the all those no-buying, like buy nothing kind of clubs. There's a ton of those. Um, just letting go of things in a responsible way. So that takes up a part of my brain, too.

Minal 51:10

Yeah. We'll have you on for episode for season two for that question.

Tina 51:14

It's all about recycling, people and repurposing.

Minal 51:19

Great, great. No, you messed up for season two. That's great. Thank you, Tina. Um this has been such a great conversation. I mean, I feel like we started out with like this sort of serious question of whether you should keep doing your job, but then veered into this really rich territory about like Asian identity and and books. And I love that I got to experience you as a leader where you're like, I'm gonna flip this and give you book recommendations.

Tina 51:45

Which is it'd seem a lot of fun to talk to you, always.

Minal 51:49

It's always fun to talk to you. We talked about um A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping by Sandhu Mandana. We talked about Mother Mary Comes to Me by Aranda De Roy. We also mentioned some articles and podcasts that uh I will make sure are in the show notes for our listeners. Um, and I just want to thank you for just coming on. It's it is always a delight to talk to you. I know you're very busy as a CEO, and I appreciate you making the time for me and for our listeners.

Tina 52:17

Thank you, Minal. It's been a pleasure.