Fourth Wing

Perimenopause, chronic pain, shifting body image - Maria is living through changes that healthcare largely ignores and society expects women to navigate silently. In this Book Therapy conversation, we confront the gaps in support for women experiencing these transitions and the toll of constantly measuring ourselves against impossible standards. 

How do we rebuild our relationship with our bodies when everything feels like it's shifting? And why does loving ourselves feel so radical in a culture built on perfection? 

Reclaiming Body Trust by Hillary Canavy and Dana Sturtevant offers a framework for breaking free from disordered patterns, while Fourth Wing provides the immersive escape we sometimes need. This is a candid dialogue about aging, self-care, and finding compassion for the bodies we inhabit.

Fourth Wing: https://bookshop.org/a/24509/9781649377371  and Reclaiming Body Trust: https://bookshop.org/a/24509/9780593418673 

Transcript

Minal Bopaiah 0:05

I'm Minal Bopaiah, your host for Book Therapy, the advice podcast for book lovers. And today we have my friend Maria on. Maria is a creative like me, like so many people I know, um, also based on the West Coast. How are you doing today, Maria?

Maria 0:23

You know, it just started raining as we were talking. So that's a good thing. Um, oh, it's good. Yeah, it is a good thing for us out here in the Pacific Northwest. We had a very dry summer, so I'm I ready for the rain. I feel like it's uh it was a little bit of a good omen for our talk today.

Minal Bopaiah 0:44

That's awesome. That's really in um in core culture where I'm from, they say it's very auspicious if it rains on your wedding day.

Maria 0:52

Okay.

Minal Bopaiah 0:52

Like it is considered very, very good luck if that happens.

Maria 0:56

Yeah. I'm not getting married today, but um Yeah, well, maybe I should right now.

Minal Bopaiah 1:05

Oh, well, great. Well, we're so happy to have you on book therapy. Um, I know we talked a while ago and you had submitted a question. Are you okay if I um read read what you submitted, or do you wanna? I mean, you're also free to change your question. I'm I'm open to how you wanna uh how you want to proceed.

Maria 1:26

Um no, go for it. Uh remind remind me. Remind you what you said. Yeah, I'm in the midst of like first week of elementary school for my kids. So I am a little um, you know, uh, yeah, that's how I am. A little sleep deprived. Um, but yeah, remind me of my question. I think I remember it, but go for it.

Minal Bopaiah 1:49

No problem. And yeah, kudos to you for getting those kids out the door.

Maria 1:54

Thank you.

Minal Bopaiah 1:55

Um, so the you're you had written, uh, and I'm gonna read this. You rewrote it in first person, so I'm reading your words. Uh, I'm having a few problems right now, economic slowdown, my kid won't sleep on their own, my skin is sagging, my body is not what it used to be. Trying to figure out what's next in my personal and professional life and turning 49. I keep thinking about how your body cells turn over every seven years. And this year, turning 49, I'll be going through one of those regenerations. How can I be healthy and fit in my body and my mind? My husband and I have been talking a lot about our physical bodies and how much they have changed. We joke that you know someone's age by looking at the skin on their hands. In my mind, I'm perpetually 39, but really I'm 49.

Maria 2:42

Yeah, that very still very much resonates. I just had my 49th birthday on, I think it was Saturday.

Minal Bopaiah 2:50

Happy birthday!

Maria 2:52

Thank you. Yeah, totally. Um, so I do I do feel like it resonates. It's also coinciding with um, I don't know if you and I talked about this, but I'm I have an injury that has been um, I don't know if debilitating is the word, but maybe it is. It's like really has caused a significant amount of pain. And um, you know, so when you were reading that question, it was like, yeah, that's really resonating because I'm at this part in my life, in my body, where um, you know, it's not 39. It's not, I'm gonna do a little physical therapy and I'm gonna be okay. It's like I'm gonna do some physical therapy and I'm gonna get to a place that is, you know, it's gonna be like, all right, you know, but uh, I mean, I've I have considered getting like some sort of like cane or something like that. I'm I'm doing much better like today, but um, you know, there's a lot of doctors' appointments, there's a lot of physical therapy, there's a lot of, and not to say you could be any age to do that, but I think this is also like I'm just notice how my body reacts a lot differently to things than it did 10 years ago, but it doesn't like I still feel like inside like that 39-year-old. Like I can do anything, I can ride my bike, I can do yoga, I can go snowboarding, I can, I can, I can, but I can't.

Minal Bopaiah 4:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am only a year behind you. And I started, I I feel it, and I I felt it when I turned 45. And for me, it was it, I think that coincided with the pandemic.

Maria 4:45

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 4:45

So that really kind of like it was hard to tell. Is it aging? Is it being a shut in? Is it getting COVID two or three times? Like, what is it? Right.

Maria 4:55

Right. Absolutely.

Minal Bopaiah 4:57

Yeah.

Maria 4:58

Yeah. And I feel the same way. And you and I talked about this a little bit being this age and perimenopause too, because it was around that time. So I had a two-year-old at that time. So I was four about 41 when I had my kid, which is a little bit older. I mean, it was fine, but I don't know. So during the pandemic, you know, I was just like, I'm just so tired. And I just kind of feel kind of terrible. So I attributed that to the pandemic and having a little kid. And even coming out of it, I'm just like, well, I just have a little kid. And um, I recently started taking progesterone because uh someone recommended and to talk to a doctor about hormone replacement therapy. And I was like, I don't know, I'm just kind of like tired all the time. I think it's just like having a kid. I let me tell you that progesterone is really helping a lot. And yeah, yeah, I didn't realize that that was also going on too, aside from like right, having a two-year-old, uh, pandemic times, um, you know, relationship with my partner being like, oh, those were tough times, and that. And like, I don't know, I feel like I'm I'm losing my train of thought here, but I didn't know, you know what I mean? That was like something else I didn't know that my body was aging and that I could, it could have been taken care of earlier, but I'm glad I have the resources now that I do.

Minal Bopaiah 6:24

Yeah, I mean, well, I think that there is now a generation of women in our sort of age group that are much more aware of perimenopause and the impacts. I think there's lots of women going back generations who are like, I could have taken a care sooner, but that speaks to that systemic injustice where women's bodies in Western medicine are fundamentally seen through the lens of reproduction. Like most of women's health centers on a woman's ability to reproduce or to prevent her from reproducing. And once you hit menopause, once reproduction is not on the table anymore, the attention to women's health completely falls off a cliff, right? Like um, and so I don't think you're alone in in feeling the impact of those sort of systemic decisions that our own way of a society has made. And even, you know, like I also got on um, I actually got on testosterone for perimenopause. And the funny thing is that like there are people who think that women don't have testosterone that like therefore must, you know, like and um and it's not covered, right? Like the the you know, hormone replacement therapies are often not covered by insurance, um particularly testosterone if it's for perimenopause, it might be covered for other things, and so they don't make it easy for women to take care of their own health. Right, right. And then we're we're um and then it is seen through a very like individual lens of how much are you doing, not how much is the system doing to make you healthy. And there was this, I think I've mentioned this before on this podcast, there's this famous headline now from the pandemic that uh a journalist had written, most countries have a social safety net, the US has women. And then of course you're tired.

Maria 8:37

Yeah, absolutely. And everything that you said made me think of like 7,000 different things. Like the first thing being like, I felt like my you know, primary care physician with the perimenopause, it was just like a quick checkoff, like I just want to talk about this, and then that's that. You're gonna gain weight. And oh, and and she said, like, yeah, you're not gonna need hormones unless your like vagina's dry. Like, seriously, like that's what she said to me. And I'm like, okay, I guess I won't think about it then. But it was only through like actually talking to someone like you and and friends and stuff and being like, oh, wait, this is this other thing that's going on. Um yeah, and I felt like during the pandemic and also with this pain, too, this hip pain, because I've actually had it for a number of years, and I'm just like, well, it's pain. I'll just like live through it, not kind of thinking, you know, oh, there's actually really something going on. So I think that's speaking to kind of like what you're saying as far as like just dismissing it. Even during this process, I would say I've been so frustrated with like I'm just trying to talk to my doctors about like how much ibuprofen can I really take. And they're like, we better talk to you. Like, I think they think I want to get on like painkillers or something. Um, which I get. Like they want to be really mindful of it, but I'm just like, I just like, can I take 600 milligrams of ibuprofen? Like, you just need to tell me. And just kind of I don't know, it's just been like this whole thing's been a weird process, too, where I haven't been feeling very supported by them. Like I've been in a lot of pain, like a lot, a lot, lot. And I just want them to be like, wow, we see you, and let's figure this out. It's more like, oh, you got an x-ray, you've got some arthritis. Talk to your doctor if you're still in pain. I'm like, I'm obviously still in pain. I keep telling you. Yeah. I keep telling you, like, it's not getting better. Anyway, I actually have a doctor's appointment today, so uh, to be continued on how it all goes down, you know.

Minal Bopaiah 10:53

Yeah.

Maria 10:54

Um, but I think I bring that up just to say, like, uh, I think as a woman too, you know, it's like even with like childbirth and stuff, like you have to do it naturally, you have to do it all this. And while that was my route, like, you know, like it's okay to have things at our disposal that are comforting to us and don't make us in a lot of pain a lot of the time, or don't make us tired all the time, or able to move our bodies in ways, and I'll say it about myself. I want to be able to move my bodies in ways like I'll probably live another 30, 40, 50 years, hopefully. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, yeah. I want to be able to do things, not be like pushed off to the side.

Minal Bopaiah 11:42

What is your relationship to either your body or to aging in general?

Maria 11:48

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I will say, so the cell turnover thing, I I I think I brought that up too, because this year's the first year I always was a very active person up until I had my kid. And then the pandemic happened. And we moved to a place where, you know, because I was riding a bike a lot, and just in our neighborhood, it's just everything's like in within a couple of blocks. So and it's hard to ride bikes outside of those blocks. So I would say this year I started working with a buddy of mine who focuses on women's physical health through perimenopause and menopause. And I would say, like, this is the first time in a long time where I have been, excuse me, feeling like empowered to move in ways that I haven't been able to before. And I noticed that it's like it's not what it is before. Um and you know, I think when I say like I feel like I'm 39, you know, I just I look at I've been with my husband Tim for 19 years. And, you know, we just had our 15th wedding anniversary, and like we were babies when we met. And like I just when I look in a mirror, I'm just like, who is this person? You know, a little bit, you know, I'm not saying I'm like having an existential crisis or anything, but like, you know, I'm like, what happened to my skin? Like, seriously, like what I mean, I know what's happening to it, but this is just what I'm thinking in my head. Like, is is someone gonna find me attractive if I go to the grocery store? Like, that's a I think that's a valid, you know, like I want to feel good, or like, am I just like, you know, is my nose just getting bigger and my skin getting saggier and my neck getting whatever? Like, and I know, like, I don't know, it's superficial, but honestly, these are the things I think of. Yeah, like my hands are you know, we talk about our liver spots, Tim and I. I don't think they're called that, it's just like spots or whole or pre-cancerous spots. Sorry.

Minal Bopaiah 14:13

Yeah. Um and I actually I see it in Tim too. I mean so I don't know. I just like I guess like talking about this. I I I'm watching this like terrible TV show with Courtney Cox, and I don't know, I watch stupid TV shows sometimes. And I know she did a lot of plastic surgery just to feel tight. And I'm like, you know, I I'm not that's not my path, but like I get it. I could totally like get it a little bit of, you know, I'm pushing my skin back a little bit. So I'm just like in this place of like being very proactive and trying to take care of myself and feel like I can continue to move my body for 30 to 40 years, and I'm just feeling like not as pretty, you know. I mean, that's the reality. That is exactly how I feel about aging. Yeah. I don't think you're alone. Yeah. I don't think you're alone, and I think um women are set up with a real sort of double bind where we're told like on on one level from like the feminist perspective, we're told beauty doesn't matter through the male gaze. That's all that matters. Um we're we're told we shouldn't be superficial, but then the world completely ignores us when we don't meet superficial requirements, right? We we're told that we should be healthy and care about like aging well, but then all the examples are often celebrities who have had surgical work done or Botox or like whatnot, right? Or really great lighting and wigs. You know, one of the reasons I really love Dolly Parton is because I saw, and not that I'm a huge, I don't know her music catalog, but I saw an interview where, you know, people ask her, How do you look so good? She's like, Yeah, it's like really good lighting and makeup and wigs and plastic surgery. Like that's how I look like that's how she doesn't look like I think she's like 78 or 79, right? Like, wow. That's the formula though. She doesn't say that it's like exercise and healthy living and I meditate every day, you know. Like she's very transparent that it's an external intervention that makes her look like that, right? Right. And very, I think very few women are not often given the truth about older women who look like that. Right. Um, and that's not, and and what I like about uh Dolly Parton saying this is also like I don't judge her for that because she's being honest about what the reasons are, you know. I'm like, if that's what you want to do, I think that's fine. I think it's harmful when people pretend they're not and then are held up as like models of health or you know, good aging.

Maria 17:06

Right. Or we're not seeing like, you know, uh, I don't know, I don't know if there should be a responsibility, responsibility in celebrity culture, but it would be nice to see more aging people. I was just watching something silly with Jamie Lee Curtis, who's who's quite a bit older than us, but you know, she's like rocking it. You know, she's showing her gray hair. She's Olivia Coleman was some is someone else who, but I well, I think this age is really interesting because it's like we're still in our 40s, we're not quite 50 yet. And, you know, it just would be nice to see more people who have the neck sag, who have the, you know what I mean? Who have the whatever it may be. It's interesting because the show that I'm watching, it's called Cougar Town. I know it's stupid. I know, I know I could spend my time doing other things, but you know what? It's my comfort, okay? And like, like a part of it is like she's like 49 or whatever, and there's a scene where she's like flabbing her arm and pulling her belly and all this. And I'm like, okay, I'd be down with that. But then there's these scenes where she's like, I go to spin classes three times a day, and I don't eat chocolate, I just suck on it for three seconds and spit it out. And I'm just TV shows like uh have a history of being problematic. That's why I can't watch the Gilmore girls anymore because of all the fat jokes. I'm just like, you know what? I'm done. I'm just like, I can't, I can't, I want to love you, but I can't, you know, and it's just like it's yeah. I just think we need more. And maybe it's me, like maybe I'm following the wrong things. Maybe I shouldn't be watching Cougar Town. But I don't know. I I am trying to make an effort to, I'm on Instagram, but to follow people that I'm just like, wow, that person that person really resonates with me. They have a body that someone else might think they're fit, they're fit, you know, but they've run like 10 marathons a year or a power lifter or you know, you know what I mean?

Minal Bopaiah 19:17

Yeah. So a couple of things there. One, uh, no judgment on anybody who watches Cougar Town. No judgment who watches Cougar Town. Because you know what? It's kind of funny and stupid. Or anything really. Yeah. What I would say though, to like sort of your question of like, how do I, you know, how do I, how can I be healthy and fit in your body and mind? Like, I think we do have to take a very individual approach to like our media diet. Like, where are our vulnerabilities and where are our strengths? Like, what are things that wouldn't bother us at all? Whereas it might bother somebody else, what are things that we know we're susceptible? You know, there's a great um academic professor, Christopher Bell, who gives us TEDx talk uh on where all the female superheroes, and he studies media pedagogy. And he says, like, media doesn't tell you what to think, but it tells you what to think about. And so if you're watching something like Cougar Town, which is like sort of poking fun, but also glorifying disordered eating and like, you know, sort of eating disordered behavior if you're going to exercise three times a day, right? That's not normal.

Maria 20:29

Also, I want to interject, she did it because she had a cinnamon roll the day before. So that's even makes it worse.

Minal Bopaiah 20:35

Deeply problematic, you know. Right. And so then that's what you end up thinking about. Even if it's not telling you, like you can understand that that is wrong. It can tell you that it's wrong, but you're still thinking about food and exercise in your own body, as opposed to if you were watching like a different show, like The Office, you would be thinking about like work dynamics and like how awkward, right? Like that's it, that's what media does is it it doesn't dictate what to think, but it primes your mind for what you pay attention to.

Maria 21:10

Can I respond to that just for a second? Because I want to say, like, we're being so careful in our family about our kid and what they watch and consume. Granted, their brain is they're eight and their brain is, you know, not fully developed or whatever, but like I have so many feelings on like no phone until whatever, no social media until whenever, you know. And this is a safety thing if they're watching like TV or YouTube, like one of us is there watching it with them. But it's funny, but like for me, like I'll get on one of those paramenopausal four o'clock in the morning wake-up times. I'll get on Instagram. So you're just saying all this. I'm like, oh my gosh.

Minal Bopaiah 21:51

Yeah. So when I so I worked at Sesame Workshop, which was Oh, you did? Yeah, it was the nonprofit behind Sesame Street. Yep. And Joan Gans Cooney, who's a woman who founded Sesame Street, she famously used to say, it's not if children learn from television, it's what.

Speaker 2 22:07

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 22:08

And throughout my career, I've also said, I was like, the same thing applies for adults. Yeah. Like, I don't know why we think that we stop learning socially from television. We absolutely continue to learn socially from television. And I think also one of the impacts of the pandemic is we stopped seeing people in real life.

Maria 22:28

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 22:29

People with like flabby necks or like lines on their neck, or like, you know, normal sized people. And so then television became our norm of what we think the world looks like. Right. And so I think we have to be very conscientious or intentional about our media diet in the way that's like, just like we would be like, what sort of food am I putting in my body? What sort of thoughts am I put and images am I putting in my mind?

Maria 23:00

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 23:00

And we don't have to be austere about it, just like it's fine to have a cinnamon bun, but I understand that it's a cinnamon bun and that it's not, you know, like I understand that I'm doing this because I like it. I understand that, you know, it's not like I need to have other types of food. And so if you like watching something that you know overall isn't good for you, that's fine to bin, you know, to have like junk food every once in a while. I don't think we should be restrictive. But then, like, what is like the meat and potatoes and vegetables of what's like cleansing of the palate of like our media diet, right? And and sometimes part of that media diet is also like not eating, right? Or not watching, like, when do I need to actually go out and be with real people or have no media on whatsoever, right?

Maria 23:45

Right. Or choose different things or whatever. And actually, the great thing about us talking right now about books is that similarly, I was an avid reader up until I had Nina. And then, you know, just time and all of that kind of stuff. And it's actually been this past year where it picked up again. So, you know, as far as like media consumption and I do audiobooks, I always get an audiobook and the physical book because I don't know like where I'm gonna want to enjoy it. And so like nighttime was definitely my bad, bad media consumption thing. And um, but that has switched a lot. Like I'll go to sleep or I'll get into bed. And of course, now it's like I got the heating pad or I've got a Tens machine on or whatever. You know, instead of watching something stupid like I put on like last night, I just put on my like most recent, you know, book that I'm listening to.

Minal Bopaiah 24:47

Yeah.

Maria 24:48

I did watch Project Runway as well, but I love Project Runway. Okay, like that is like my thing.

Minal Bopaiah 24:53

And listen, like you watch Project Runway. I am not on Project Runway yet. I'm not a big reality TV type of person, but I definitely have like my comfort watches and like stuff that I like that's weird or like or that people could judge me for, right? Like, I'm actually one of the things people do judge me for, I'm super into Star Trek in a way that's weird.

Maria 25:16

I feel like that is a good judgment, though. I feel like I've known I have not been a Star Trek person, but there have been so many people in my life who have been into Star Trek, and I'm like, that person's awesome.

Minal Bopaiah 25:27

Yeah, I I kind of believe that because I just I've well, the one of the reasons I'm into sort of sci-fi now is because it's a nice distraction from reality. Yeah. Right. Um, I've also super been into like, I think I shared this previously that like, you know, at the start of the year and then like after the election, I binged a lot of like fantasy romance.

Maria 25:53

Oh, yeah, totally.

Minal Bopaiah 25:54

Right. And like, and I was like, I never thought I would be into this, but like now I am. And it and I've recommended it to girlfriends who have all been like, that was the best break from reality I could get. It was totally immersive.

Maria 26:06

What did you watch? What's a fantasy romance?

Minal Bopaiah 26:09

So yeah, so um, well, I wasn't expecting this book to be the one of the ones I recommend, but uh Fourth Wing, which is also kind of violent, which is not usually my deal, um, but super immersive. And actually, I just spoke to my best friend. She's like, I stayed up, she has two kids, and she's like, I stayed up at night reading it. It was so like immersive and addictive, and it was such a great break from like responsibility and dealing with the world.

Maria 26:35

Is it steamy?

Minal Bopaiah 26:36

It is very steamy. It's very steamy.

Maria 26:38

I read a steamy book for the first time this past year, and I was like, ooh, I kind of into this. Yes, like I didn't think.

Minal Bopaiah 26:50

I was on a call with a bunch of people in public media, and I mentioned this, and then I saw one of them at a conference, and they came up to me and said, Thank you for saying that, because I've always been into romance, but I've always been a little bit ashamed, like it wasn't intellectual enough. And I so appreciated you just sort of owning it. And I and it is some of the smartest women I know who are into this, I will admit. Like, yeah. So I highly recommend that. But my book recommendation for you was in addition to Fourth Wing, okay. Um, because you know, if you need a break from it all, I was also going to recommend for you uh Reclaiming Body Trust. Have you heard of this?

Maria 27:35

It sounds familiar, but I I need to hear a little bit more.

Minal Bopaiah 27:38

Yeah, so it's uh it's called Reclaiming Body Trust, Break Free from a Culture of Body Perfection, Disordered Eating, and Other Traumas. It's by Hilary Kinavy and Dana Sturt Sturdevant, I believe is how you pronounce their names. Um, and I think you would really like it because one of the things that I had to do, um, and and this book helped me get there. Um, when I turned like 45 and I, you know, the pandemic and um I started also having chronic pain and perimenopause and my weight changed was I really had to change my relationship to my body and to exercise. I had to start to see exercise as something that would allow me to maintain functional independence when I'm 80 rather than something that was about sculpting my body or how I looked. Um, which I think for any of us who grew up in the 90s, all of the messaging around exercise was about weight loss and how you look. There's a real um, there was also a real message that like weight equals health, and that's not true. Right. And and this book also talks about, it talks about it from a very systemic lens of like um if anyone grew up with food insecurity, right? Like disordered eating, not just denial, but also like, you know, overindulgence in eating is a trauma response from never knowing when there was going to be enough food on the table and things like that, right? And so they have really practical interventions that are not about the next diet phase, but changing your relationship to food, changing your relationship to your body, like what it's meant to do over the course of a lifetime. Um, being much more because I I feel the same things you do, like my energy levels have shifted right when I think I'm my most interesting and should be doing the most in the world. And that's really frustrating, right? But then I think once you realize how little um time you have and how your energy is limited, you become like a thousand times more intentional in where you spend it. And the liberating part about that is that you really start to drop things that in your 20s and 30s would be things you would room. About or be upset, or like you're just kind of like, I don't have energy to be angry about this, or to deal with this person who can't be reciprocal in a relationship, or you know, a stupid like turf battle at work. Like these all things, like they start to drop from your like mental space because you're like, that's not going to be good for what I want. And so um, but I think it really starts with changing your relationship to your body and understanding the program many of us received around food and exercise, and then making intentional choices not to reinforce that programming going forward.

Maria 30:40

Right. Yeah, I love that. Um, and I'm gonna add that to my list of books to get out of the library, and you know, it's really interesting to just to reflect back, and thank you. To reflect back on some of the things you were saying, and yes, in the 90s and all that kind of stuff, and being someone with a bigger body and going to a nutritionist at whatever, and like not, you know, being introduced to sports because people thought I I wouldn't like that because I had a bigger body, which was not true at all. No, yeah, no, not at all. And also with media like this media conversation has been really interesting too, because I don't think you're on Instagram because we talked about this before, but I am, and um it's interesting to see the now in my feed are all the 50-ish age women working out and their bodies. And I'm just like, oh, is that what I'm supposed to? You know what I mean? So it's it's like it's not just the 90s, it's always. And so this sounds like really refreshing and and helpful for me. And and I'm also a hundred percent with you as far as like exercise, too. Like, I I also want to be independent as I get older, and I want to be strong and be able to do some things that are fun and you know.

Minal Bopaiah 32:08

Well, and I'll also say I'll also just sort of tap into your identity as a mom and and how you talked about how much and thoughtfulness you put into what your child is like consuming in terms of media. You know, when you said that, I was reminded that like, you know, my parents always had a cabinet full of liquor growing up, but I never saw them drink it. They never really drank, I never really saw any of them like drunk. And so what what that taught me is that you can be around alcohol and not abuse it instead of telling us you should or shouldn't drink. Right. And you know, like they they often say, example is the only teacher, right? And so if you're instead of telling your eight-year-old what they can or cannot watch, if they see you modeling like, oh yeah, I don't want to watch this because this isn't gonna like make me feel good about myself, like I don't want to be on social media before bed because that's not gonna let me have a good night's sleep. That's gonna put, you know, preoccupations in my mind that I don't want. I'm gonna be really intentional about how I curate who I follow and like what I want to look to look at, right? That shows them showing them how to interact with media will be a better teacher than putting external limits on them that they want to rebel against.

Maria 33:29

For sure. Absolutely. Yeah, and even like relationships to the phone, too. And that's something we've talked about as a family. And they're even like, well, you tell me I can't be on my phone, but you're on my phone, and you're like, you know what? You're totally right. Yeah, you're like 100% right, and we gotta work on that. So I hear you, and the same thing in relationship to food, and the same thing in relationship to exercise, and the same, you know, all of all of that. Like, I'm not forcing you to exercise at all. They happen to be naturally a very active person, but you know what? I'm gonna take time for myself and exercise. Yeah. And you need to, you need to do something while I do that because it's important. Same, yeah, I hear you. I really resonate with all of that.

Minal Bopaiah 34:13

Well, and I think it's a radical act of love towards yourself that then also becomes a radical act of love towards your child. Right. I don't think enough mothers or women are taught how loving yourself, like genuinely pouring love into yourself also benefits the people that you want to pour love into.

Maria 34:36

Absolutely.

Minal Bopaiah 34:36

I think we're we're taught that love is about giving to other people at our own sacrifice or at our own exhaustion. We're not taught how actually filling up our own cup and replenishing ourselves could be a back an act of love towards us and towards someone else.

Maria 34:56

Absolutely. And it's funny you say that because so I had my birthday, and then I'm good tomorrow, every once in a while I do this, but tomorrow night I'm staying in a hotel by myself. And Nina was like, and I'm just like, you know what? This is uh just mom's going on. I'm doing my staycation thing, and I'm taking time to myself.

Minal Bopaiah 35:15

And that's my favorite thing to do. I mean, I'm not a mom, but like oh yeah, like just having a like a a hotel or an Airbnb sometimes.

Maria 35:27

Yeah, sometimes I mean I love Tim, but you know what I'm saying? Like, I gotta be alone, yo. Yeah, like I just gotta go. And we use Tim Point, Tim's Point, so I got it's like 30 bucks to stay at this like really nice hotel. So it's I I and I appreciate you saying that too, because you know, yeah. There's a lot, and we run our own businesses too, so there's a lot of energy going out to that. There's a lot of energy going out to the relationship, the partner. There's a lot of relationship going out to my kid. There's a lot of relationships. So this has actually been a really like insightful write down pouring love into myself.

Minal Bopaiah 36:09

Well, I you should write that down, and I will actually name check my friend Um Byron Calish Green, who I heard him at a conference once say, You do not give from your cup, you give from your overflow.

Maria 36:24

Yo, Byron, hi Five.

Minal Bopaiah 36:34

And like that, everybody was just pin drop silence after that because they were like, oh damn.

Maria 36:41

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 36:42

Right. And I you need to know how to replenish your cup, but then you need to you need to get it to a point of overflow before you start pouring out again, before you start giving again.

Maria 36:52

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 36:53

So all right, Maria. Um, are you ready for your rapid fire questions?

Maria 36:59

Sure. I did I I didn't know this was gonna happen, but I'm gonna do it. Maybe you told me, but I forgot, which is more fun.

Minal Bopaiah 37:06

Yeah, it's more impromptu. Yeah, they're easy questions. There's no right or wrong answer. Um, what's your favorite book of all time?

Maria 37:15

That's a good question. Um, the answer is I don't know, but I will say the most memorable book, memorable book of all time is A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline Langle because I remember that being the book that got me into reading. And I still have my original copy that I bought in elementary school, and it's in my house right now. And I don't read that one, I read another one because I protect that one so much.

Minal Bopaiah 37:42

Oh my god, that's so awesome. I I love that book too. I didn't read it till I was an adult, but I I loved it because it was one of the books where I felt like it was the most um it was just the most heartfelt relationship between a brother and sister. And I'm really close to my brother. And I was like, there's so few books that I think talk about siblings at that like level and stuff. And I just I loved it for that whole thing and how protective she was of her brother and everything. So I uh I think a wrinkle in time is an ultimate one of the ultimate classics.

Maria 38:15

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 38:16

Okay.

Maria 38:17

Looking forward to sharing it with Nina.

Minal Bopaiah 38:18

Yeah. What would you ever want to write a book? And if so, about what?

Maria 38:23

That's a really good question. I feel like I could do a silly graphic novel with my silly um stick drawings, like little comics. Like, you know, people always say, like, I have a punny way of of approaching something. And I'm like, and I I I I have I I was doing these these stick drawings for Nina for their lunch every day. And actually the other day they said don't do it, mom, anymore. And so um, but I feel like I could do like little, like a little group of comics about like like that, about life.

Minal Bopaiah 39:00

That'd be awesome. Well, because you're a graphic designer, and I'm sure that that would be really fabulous.

Maria 39:04

Yeah, and I have a drawing history too, so it could get me back into drawing as well.

Minal Bopaiah 39:10

Awesome. Um, if you could invite an author to dinner, living or dead, who would it be and why?

Maria 39:18

Gosh, I feel like there are so many. And I think I would want to, oh my gosh, I just had like seven people come up into my head. Um, oh my gosh. I think I would want someone who did who does drawing as well as books. And um, I really love Wendy McNaughton, and she's more of like an illustrator. Do you know who she is?

Minal Bopaiah 39:49

No, I don't.

Maria 39:50

Yeah, check her out. Um, I mean, she does a lot of illustration for like the New York Times and stuff like that. But she's had a couple books out, and one of them was, I don't remember the name, something about San Francisco. And um, it was more like journalistic in nature, but it was so beautiful. Um, and just her kind of impressions of San Francisco, the library, you know, and all that kind of stuff. So I feel like I would love to talk to her and about her path and her journey and her, you know, discipline as well.

Minal Bopaiah 40:23

Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, well, keep that in mind.

Maria 40:26

I did meet her once for like five minutes at a book thing here in Portland, and I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna die. She was so nice. She was so nice.

Minal Bopaiah 40:38

Yeah, I'm looking at some of her stuff. She did a uh graphic version of salt fat acid heat. Yeah, this is really cool stuff. Yeah. Thank you for introducing me to somebody new. That's great.

Maria 40:48

So beautiful.

Minal Bopaiah 40:49

Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, and last question, which I really just asked to alleviate my own personal guilt. If you had to guess, how many books are in your home?

Maria 40:59

Oh gosh, I have no idea. You know, I mean, how many? There a lot of them are right there in the hallway. And we actually got rid of a lot of books and only keep the ones that we cherish. Um, 20, 40, 60, 80, maybe 100 over there. And then Nina probably has like 60 um books. We have 60 books out of the library. That includes audiobooks.

Speaker 3 41:30

Oh, but okay.

Maria 41:32

Yeah, we probably have about up to 50 physical books out of the library right now. No joke. No joke.

Minal Bopaiah 41:38

I kind of love that you're such library enthusiasts.

Maria 41:41

Oh, yeah, it's great. It's great for us, for me, uh and it's great for Nina as well because it exposes them to, you know, because they like reading like series, like they'll find a graphic novel that they like and they'll read. And yeah, library day is like a really exciting day. So um, yeah, I think we're in the hundreds there. A lot of like graphic novels that my husband and I want to keep precious. Same thing for Nina. The the book that they um learned to read from, which was Roller Girl, um, which is about um roller derby. You know, they have their copies, they have two copies of that as well. It's just it's their a wrinkle in time. So many, many precious books.

Minal Bopaiah 42:26

That's awesome. I love that.

Maria 42:28

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 42:29

Um, great. Well, I have enjoyed our time together. I'm glad we got to have such a candid conversation about our bodies and perimenopause and pain and aging and how much the media programs us or deprograms us to believe these myths. Uh, I really enjoyed talking to you about reclaiming body trust and about fourth wing, which I do also highly recommend. Got it. And and also just hearing about um just it's just great to like have somebody share so candidly about what they're thinking, which I think many, many people can relate to. I think what you talked about is really relatable to most women in this day and age and definitely of our generation. And so thank you for that, Maria. I really appreciate it.

Maria 43:16

And thank you for creating a safe space to talk about this stuff. So I appreciate it. And I really learned a lot.

Minal Bopaiah 43:23

Oh, great. Thank you. Um and I think we then we I think we'll see people, hear people, or he people will hear us or me next time.

Maria 43:37

That's right.