Burnout

Burnout nearly cost Rima her life - literally. 

Now a successful CEO, this third culture kid from an immigrant family shares her ongoing struggle with communication across different styles and the stress that once led to cancer. In this episode of Book Therapy, we dive deep into completing the stress cycle and why the boundaries she's mastered in her personal life remain elusive professionally. Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski and Reflections on a Mountain Lake by Jetsuma Tenzin Palmo guide a mindful conversation about sustainable leadership.

Transcript

Minal Bopaiah 0:01

I'm Minal Bopaiah, your host for Book Therapy, the advice podcast for book lovers. And today my guest is Rima. Rima is a CEO of a national membership organization. She's also a third culture kid growing up in the Philippines and other Southeast Asian countries, but going to international schools. And like me, she's the eldest daughter in an immigrant family from Generation X.

Rima 0:45

I'm like laughing already. I'm sorry, Minal. There's going to be a lot of that, so I don't cry today.

Minal Bopaiah 0:53

We have a lot of... We have a good time with a very dark sense of humor. Yes. You know, content warning on that.

Rima 1:03

Yes, absolutely. So,

Minal Bopaiah 1:04

Rima, you wrote in... Well, you know what? I'm just going to read the two questions you posed, but then I'm going to let you give more context for the challenge that you're trying to deal with. So you wrote in asking how to better communicate with people who have really different styles or personality types from me, or how to work with folks I don't click with, or who I might not click with me, or who might not... How to work with folks I don't click with... And those who might not click with me, especially the ones who act like they know better than I do, which is my

Rima 1:44

favorite question. What I intend to say better than anyone I know on a personal and professional level. And like in many ways, like you are my work wife or my work husband or whatever conceit you want to use for that. Because, like, whatever information you help with me today, I will also use in my marriage. So, you know, it's not like you have the weight on your shoulders to solve all my problems today, Minnell, at all. No, I don't see it that way.

Minal Bopaiah 2:27

Okay. Because my husband, about a year or two ago, referred to me as the emotional support animal of the family.

Rima 2:35

Okay. Awesome. And know that my mom considers you her daughter also. Right. So so it's all intertwined. But the context and this is why I've always reached out to you as like before you and I became friends as a strategic communications colleague was to better help me be intentional. with how I want my words to be heard, which is different than my verbal processing, which you also let me do with you. But I need to be much better at communicating my intentions in a way that can be heard well. especially with folks who have a very different communication style than I do, who have a very different personality type than I do. And really in times like I'm experiencing now professionally, where there is a lot of demand on my time and demand for me to be super clear about with the message that I'm trying to get across. And I'm in spaces where there is high conflict and disagreement and a difference of values. Does that give good enough context for my questions?

Minal Bopaiah 4:22

Well, I think there's two questions here. There's like how to communicate better and then part of your question my

Rima 4:30

triggers

Minal Bopaiah 4:31

yeah like part of your question is like how do I handle the moments when I'm not at my best correct and I start to spiral when people are like mansplaining things to me or like you know or or

Rima 4:42

last night at three o'clock in the morning when I read an article that pissed me off and then I kind of started to spiral and as you know how I deal with spiraling some people journal i write op-ed pieces

Minal Bopaiah 4:58

yeah but also stop reading articles at three o'clock in the morning what are you doing

Rima 5:02

right i know well i couldn't sleep so so that was the option i mean i was listening to my rom-com books anyways but then i had to like repeat Well, yeah, I mean, it's not like...

Minal Bopaiah 5:39

It's not like dysfunctional behavior and creativity hasn't been linked in some way. I'm not saying you didn't do good work. I'm saying you're not healthy. No,

Rima 5:49

exactly. And so, so, but know that I will balance the not sleeping. I already have a massage plan for this afternoon. So like I am aware, I am aware of my bad behavior. Yeah. So, but I need to show up better and, in certain circumstances when I get crispy around the edges because of the work that I do and that I speak for a national membership.

Minal Bopaiah 6:21

Yeah. What would it take for you to see your sleep schedule as part of your preparation to be good at your job as a leader?

Rima 6:38

Oh, the good news is I'm better now, even though I'm really bad. So I have made some improvement. Right. So context there. I did quit my last job because it was unhealthy. Yeah. Like I got to the point where I can't work six, seven days a week and sleep like hardly anything. Yeah. which caused burnout. And so, really the first quarter of last calendar year, I was probably sleeping too much. And that was also detrimental to my health. Like, you know, was I depression and I asked for like increase in my Zoloft to like help balance things out, you know, and melatonin is part of how I sleep better. And I do use podcasts or just audio, whether it's music or spoken word to shut my brain off. To help me sleep.

Minal Bopaiah 7:54

What do you do physically?

Rima 7:56

Not enough. So I walk. But the people pleaser in me, which I am also working on, right, prioritizes work and family over self-care. So, like, whatever I need to do for my young adult son, that takes priority. The craziness that he's adopted a puppy. We have a senior dog. There's, you know, two dogs. guinea pigs and an aging gecko in our household, you know, that sets the scene of what it's like in the three levels of our townhouse. And there might be a little noise creep right now as the dog walker just got here and my dog is running down the stairs in the background in case, you know, you hear that. But I paint that all to say is, Yes. Do I need to sleep better? Absolutely. Do I need more breaks of stepping away from my laptop to take walks? Yes. I was actually much better during that pandemic about that. But then like I let that go and then I burnt out and then I'm recovering from burnout. And I'm trying to find whatever my new even keel is now to tackle all of those things. So I do know better. I just haven't gotten to the point where, you know, I do better. Does that make sense?

Minal Bopaiah 10:04

I mean, yeah, that's everybody's. And particularly in your field is smart and has read all the things but isn't doing anything different. Right.

Rima 10:14

Like my dad worked for college Colgate Pomolive. Right. I grew up as a Colgate kid. The fact that I have a cavity and a half right now that I have to address that I've known about since January for my dentist, but I haven't got that cavity and a half filled like that's also on my to do list. Right.

Minal Bopaiah 10:34

Yeah. So I'm going to, so I think I'm going to have to run through a bunch of books with you. I can't, I don't think it's going to be one.

Rima 10:41

I didn't think that it was just going to be one. So I will be taking notes.

Minal Bopaiah 10:46

Have you already read Burnout by Amelia and Emily Nagoski?

Rima 10:51

I've read it prior to being burned out and I should probably like read it again in this recovery of burnout, you know, and also context wise. I don't know if I've shared this with you. So like the first time I burnt out, I got cancer. Oh shit. So like Derek was in kindergarten when I got cancer, but I guess I got quote unquote, the good kind where it was early stage one, uterine cancer, got a hysterectomy, took a bunch of drugs, didn't even have to have chemo or radiation. And I've been cancer free since then. Um, But yeah, I need to read Burnout again, right?

Minal Bopaiah 11:38

I think you do because I think the part that you're missing right now is really the first part of the book talks about there is a difference between the stressor and the stress you're feeling.

Rima 11:56

Ah, got it.

Minal Bopaiah 11:58

The stressor can go away, right? But you still have to complete the stress cycle. And so the example that they give is like if, you know, in the time of hunter-gatherers, if you were hunting a lion or even getting chased by a lion, that can end. You can even kill the lion. But then you have to complete the stress cycle, which is why we have rituals of like dancing after a hunt and like having a celebration because that movement is what gets it out of your body.

Rima 12:30

And... I procrastinate at closing shit out.

Minal Bopaiah 12:35

Yeah. But even if you haven't closed, you know, like I can't always close projects out. That's fine. But what I do do is I close my workday out. I'm like, you know, like four or five o'clock. And what I had to do is I had to say, okay, I need to move two hours a day, one hour in the morning, one hour in the evening. And I know that if I go more than two days without walking or running, I can't sleep. And so you need to figure out how to make completing the stress cycle part of your day, which is what this book really talks about. And what I also really like about this book is is that it talks about the patriarchy and how that affects people

Rima 13:20

right

Minal Bopaiah 13:21

and how the stress is not like the anxiety and the fear is not always internal there are external reasons for it and then how do you you know what are the small things you can do to feel like you have agency in a system that is like mansplaining to you right like how do you deal with that right um And so they're not faulting people for feeling stress. They have a systemic view on like why people are getting burnt out. But they're also saying that that system is affecting your body, not just your mind. And you have to work through that somehow. And when I first read this book, they talk about like, you know, after you exercise for like half an hour to an hour, like, you know, you can feel your body return, but... For one of them, it's like a very clear switch. For another one of them, it's very small and nuanced. And I realized it took me about two years to start to noticeably feel that shift after I work out. At first, it didn't feel like anything. It just felt like another thing to do. I didn't feel the benefits of it. It wasn't until I had healed enough that... And for listeners, I also had like some burnout issues and got chronic pain and threw out my back and have lots of stuff going on. And it took me about, it took me a year and a half of PT to get back to the point where I could like run for five minutes, right? Like that's how bad it was. And so, but it, It wasn't really until that year and a half that I started to feel like, oh, now when I walk or run, I can feel the shift in my body that I was like, oh, okay, that's done. And now I'm back to baseline. And the reason is because I had so many years of not doing that that I think it takes a while to unwind it all. But that is what will... I think help you in like not spiraling when you're faced with your triggers, because then what happens is that it's not a compound effect. You can face every new trigger independent of like all the nonsense that you've already processed.

Rima 15:36

Right. So how do I do better than if I thought I was closing out my day?

Minal Bopaiah 15:52

So for me, it means having very weird rules.

Rima 16:02

No, share, because this is like the... And not to complicate the question, but given the moment that we're in and what I'm facing professionally is... like many other jobs there are ebbs and flows right and like I'm particularly managing a crazy time right now and like I knew this coming in to this week that well actually I didn't I panicked woke up in some point on Monday because I actually slept in and I was like oh shit, this is going to be a crazy week. And so I booked a massage on Monday, a facial on Tuesday, and I'm closing the week with a massage. So I'm trying to put in the rituals to end and let go, to go into the weekend of shifting to focus on my family. But clearly, what I'm doing isn't good enough if I'm still experiencing the bullshit that I'm experiencing.

Minal Bopaiah 17:19

Well, what I heard there also is that you're shifting your attention from work to family, and I don't hear you shifting the attention to you.

Rima 17:26

Ah, okay. Totally fair. Yep.

Minal Bopaiah 17:32

Yeah, totally fair. And so, like, the other thing you can do is... Block out an hour on your calendar every day where you just get to sit there and daydream. Got it. Okay. And not spiral, not think of strategic plans for your organization.

Rima 17:50

Which you know I do.

Minal Bopaiah 17:52

Yes. And maybe it's not daydreaming. Maybe it's something else. Maybe it's writing fiction. Maybe it's like...

Rima 17:59

Picking up my coloring books again. Yeah. Like focusing on that. Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 18:03

Like just an hour a day that's yours. And like, sure, the other 23 are to your organization and your family. But like, let's start with an hour. And then I think what you're going to find is that that becomes so addictive. You're going to want more and more time for that. Right. But it has to be just for you.

Rima 18:21

Right. Yeah, so we won't bring in the fact that that's when I usually get texts from my mom, right?

Minal Bopaiah 18:28

I mean, you can get it, but you can't respond to it.

Rima 18:33

Fair. Can I say that to my mom that Minal said that?

Minal Bopaiah 18:40

I mean, you can, but just don't, I mean, you don't, you just don't say anything to Asian parents. It's indirect. You don't have to like tell them you're doing it.

Rima 18:48

Right. No. Yes.

Minal Bopaiah 18:50

Well, and that's the thing too. You don't like, So I do think that as eldest daughters in cultures that are more collectivistic, we make the mistake of thinking we need permission. Like you don't have to have permission to do what you want to do.

Rima 19:17

Well, and then for those of us who... try not to fall into that trap we then have to deal with our guilt after the fact

Minal Bopaiah 19:28

yeah well and also you don't so not only do we not need permission you don't need to inform them right right i think what what eldest daughters do is we keep everybody in the loop we totally do and i sort of think we should just sort of disappear for an hour where nobody can find us Just for an hour,

Rima 19:48

right?

Minal Bopaiah 19:49

No,

Rima 19:49

absolutely.

Minal Bopaiah 19:50

And don't tell them and don't inform them where you're going and you'll be back in an hour and they can figure it out, right? You don't need to tell them where you're going. You don't need to tell them not to contact you. You just don't reinforce the behavior that you're available within 10 seconds of a text,

Rima 20:06

right?

Minal Bopaiah 20:07

So I think it's more of a disappearing act that you need to do rather than a boundary setting because it's... There's no real boundary setting. Right.

Rima 20:17

And what's that phenomenon? Because this is definitely me. So because I haven't prioritized me time regularly. Right. Like that's the time I'll take and won't go to sleep. So I totally procrastinate on that and replace it with me time. Right. And then it's this like spiral of I'm really tired. I sleep in. I don't prep for work enough the next day. And then I'm playing catch up because my B game can also suffice as an A game in other contexts. And so I'm working off of reserves instead of overflow. which I need to be doing better. Does that all make sense, too? That all makes sense, but I... But I

Minal Bopaiah 21:13

should stop it? No. Well, because I think... Well, I think... I say this as a friend. I know. I think you're very good at using all the lingo. Oh, yeah. Totally. And having all the awareness. And that doesn't, like... I feel like you can very intellectually discuss what your problems are.

Rima 21:41

Absolutely, I can. But again, I might be smart, but not smart enough to do it well for myself.

Minal Bopaiah 21:49

Yeah, and that is getting to an issue of... That's getting to a much deeper issue. Sometimes it can be how much you value yourself. But I think a better way into that conversation is what's your actual philosophy or, I mean, do you, we've never really talked about this, Rima, but do you have like a spiritual or religious bent or philosophy?

Rima 22:26

Culturally Catholic, like many Filipinos, right? Yeah. I guess I have more Buddhist leanings. Or I guess philosophical leanings. I told you I'm going to cry if I don't laugh. You can tell I'm tired. Yeah, I don't. I guess I'm more of a spiritual person than I am a religious person.

Minal Bopaiah 23:13

Yeah. Why are you crying?

Rima 23:18

I don't know. I think it's... And an honest question from a good friend who cares about me. And I've been busy taking care of a lot of other things and a lot of other people. So it's recognizing how just depleted I am in the moment.

Minal Bopaiah 24:10

I don't, I think.

Rima 24:16

And you know me, I ugly girl cry. That's okay.

Minal Bopaiah 24:20

I mean, that's fine. Don't we all? like who cries pretty? I don't know. But I mean, I think all this stuff that we can talk about, about like embodying stress and your nervous system and all, The other side of that coin is also that when you are not making time for yourself, you're also not taking care of your soul.

Rima 24:45

Right. And I think that's why I'm crying.

Minal Bopaiah 24:49

Yeah. And I think every soul has its own expression that it's meant to express while it's here on earth. And when we get so busy with other people, that soul is not expressed and it leads to depression and anxiety and tears and spiraling and all of those things.

Rima 25:17

Yeah, I definitely need to rest in a real way. And I just haven't had the opportunity to do that, not just well, and no pun intended, but Or maybe pun intended, religiously. But I think you're right. There is healing that I haven't done well enough from my last bout of burnout. And I... was not prepared enough for the moment my organization is in. And the reserves aren't there enough to pull from.

Minal Bopaiah 26:25

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's accurate. Yeah. That's also, again, you being very intellectual about you discussing stuff. Is that my tell? Yes. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, no. That sounds smart. I don't buy it. That's the real problem.

Rima 26:47

And this is why we're friends. I appreciate you calling me out on my bullshit.

Minal Bopaiah 26:53

Well, because I don't want you to see your soul's expression. It is different from intellectual expression. Right. I think when you're writing articles at like 2 and 3 a.m., that's your mind expressing itself. There's something deeper that's desiring its expression that may also be fleeting like a sand mandala. It's not meant for like impact. It is meant just for your own pure joy. You know, and one of the things I had to start in during my burnout phase is I got like this huge glass jar and these little, you know, two-inch square pieces of colored paper. And just every day I would try to write like what brought me joy. And some days it was so hard. It was so hard. I had been super productive, but none of it brought me joy. Like it's not writing down your accomplishments and like what you'd got done. It's writing like what made me feel joy, which is a totally different endeavor.

Rima 27:52

Right.

Minal Bopaiah 27:54

You know? And so... like I think you feel like you can intellectualize as much as you want, but that doesn't make you feel better. Right. And so like, and also it doesn't give you the skill for how do you nurture certain feelings inside yourself.

Rima 28:12

Got it.

Minal Bopaiah 28:14

You know, like how do you nurture joy in yourself? What actually brings joy? You know?

Rima 28:22

So, What's the book that I read to get out of.

Minal Bopaiah 28:31

Intellectualizing.

Rima 28:32

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 28:32

Yeah. Okay. Um, so the book I would recommend for that is actually, uh, reflections on a mountain lake by Jitsuma Tenzin Palmo. Got it. I don't know. Have you read it?

Rima 28:48

No, I, I know, I know of it. Uh, uh, I think you might have quoted something from the book to me. I'm sorry. What's the name of the book again?

Minal Bopaiah 28:59

It's called Reflections on a Mountain Lake. And it's actually a collection of transcribed talks from Tenzin Palmo. And so just a little background on her. Jitsuma Tenzin Palmo was the first British woman to be ordained as a Buddhist nun in 1959 in Tibet. or in the Himalayas. It may have been Nepal, not Tibet, depending on access at that time. And she then went and meditated in a cave for 12 years in the Himalayas, which I think is the most badass thing ever.

Rima 29:38

That is totally badass.

Minal Bopaiah 29:40

Like just by herself, which I mean, for those of us who lived through the pandemic, imagine that by like 12 years and also enjoying it, right? Just really into it.

Rima 29:51

I do have a more introverted side than an extroverted side, but that's a little extreme for me.

Minal Bopaiah 29:58

And I'm not recommending you do it. The book is not about doing that. But what I am saying is that one of the reasons I like the book is because I think there are very few books out there that are really about women who... expressing themselves without talking about being a wife or mother.

Rima 30:24

Yes.

Minal Bopaiah 30:26

Who didn't play that role. I find it fascinating to read biographies of women who never chose to be a wife or a mother. Karen Armstrong is another one that comes to mind. And what they go and do with their lives because we never get to see... So if a woman becomes a nun, doesn't engage in marriage or motherhood, but then has this incredibly rich intellectual and spiritual life. Like, what does it look like?

Rima 30:55

Right? And it's funny that you bring that up because I have those folks, like, directly in my family.

Minal Bopaiah 31:03

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think women like that are fascinating to know. And I think, like, then to get a spiritual teaching from another woman who is... lived like that is different than the spiritual teachings you get from other people, right? Like I think a lot of women spiritual teachers draw on motherhood as an analogy for how to be in the world. I think a lot of male spiritual teachers talk about the differences between men and women and either they subjugate women or, and sometimes they deify women, right? That like mothers are like the ultimate. And then like, if you're not a mother, you're like, so I can't be spiritually evolved then, right? You know? Correct. And I also think even for people like you who are wife and mothers, to understand that there is something else that, that you can be a woman and not play that role. Like there is a part of you that is also a human being worthy of expression outside of those roles.

Rima 32:05

Yes. And that was the whole, like, that's what going to Mount Holyoke taught a lot of us, right. Who, who were my, you know, sister alumnae and, and, and, and now being gender inclusive alumni, you know, at Mount Holyoke.

Minal Bopaiah 32:29

But, and that being said though, the book doesn't actually talk about that as directly. The only mention they really make is Jetsuma is trying to revive the female lineage of Buddhism. Right. Because there were women who followed Buddha, but the monks got to live in a monastery. And now even like the, the nuns, even if they do get to go and live in a monastery, they're often relegated to the kitchen. Yes. And so she says that Buddhism and Hinduism also doesn't say that a woman can't become enlightened, but yet there's so few examples on the ground. And why is that? And what needs to change? And so she has created a nunnery in North India to revive the female lineage. But To have somebody doing all that, and then she'll talk about the importance of awareness and detachment. And, you know, most of us humans, we want praise, not blame. We want pleasure, not pain. But all of Buddhism is that both of those things come, right? And so you have to be detached.

Rima 33:41

Right.

Minal Bopaiah 33:41

And I think it is a more powerful message when it comes from another woman than when it comes from a man who cannot acknowledge the effects of patriarchy and might blame us for not being able to be detached from the injustice of patriarchy, but she's not doing that, right? And so I think it's a better messenger for you for these concepts that are important, but that have been... often delivered through a lens that is very different from your experience.

Rima 34:19

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And you don't need a book report, right?

Minal Bopaiah 34:26

No, but I'll talk about it. So I actually, I will share that I picked up that book. So I have a habit of writing my name in the year I start reading a book in all my books..

Rima 34:37

Oh, that's interesting.

Minal Bopaiah 34:38

And like, I picked up that book in 2008. when I was really in it, like really in it. And I had it by my nightstand and would just pick it up and reread it when I couldn't sleep. You know, that was the book to be like, oh, because for you, Rima, like you have a very powerful mind and it's firing on all pistons. But what they have found more and more when they look at mental illness particularly is that the theory is now shifting that It's not a deficiency. It's actually often things just be like... People are firing on all pistons and don't know how to get down. They're just driving on adrenaline.

Rima 35:23

Oh, absolutely.

Minal Bopaiah 35:24

You know? And so if you don't learn that mental discipline of how to cut that off, that is what will impede you. It will never be for a lack of knowing something.

Rima 35:36

Got it. And I think... I think like, as you identified at the start of this conversation of me not finishing the, the, the, um, stress cycle. Yeah. Like this is cyclical for me where I'm like, I'm good for like five years and then I burn out. And then I need to look for another job or something shift. Right. Like, and, and, and then, uh, I reset the cycle and I'm good for a while and I'm able to shut down, but then I revert to not shutting down.

Minal Bopaiah 36:37

Well, And to be the most Indian auntie ever, you need mental discipline.

Rima 36:44

Correct. I do.

Minal Bopaiah 36:46

Yeah. And you need it around rest.

Rima 36:48

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 36:49

If you cannot discipline your mind to rest, you won't be able to live up to your potential.

Rima 36:57

Got it. Oh, and that's like the worst thing to tell to like a fellow like Asian, right? Yeah. You are, I have, I'm disappointed in you. You're not living up to your potential, Rima.

Minal Bopaiah 37:12

I know. And like, and that's so, I mean, I know that that's so terrible on some level, but also like. But that's so true. Well, because I, because I know that that's what's going to land with you. Right. If I'm like, oh, if you're not disciplined, you won't be able to give to others. Like, I don't think that'll land as much as me being like, you will not live up to your potential. Because you're undercutting yourself with this. And then you can't actually do the things you need to do because what you need to do as a leader, particularly if you're an Asian woman, is also be a model for other Asian women who are up and coming. And if you don't figure this out, you're going to... I was talking to another Indian friend a while ago about how our mothers did so much for us and they cooked so much for us. And then when we get older and if we get married... they're like, why aren't you cooking as much? I think they thought that they would have...

Rima 38:07

Were you listening in on my conversation with my mom?

Minal Bopaiah 38:11

Well, and I think they thought like, oh, I'm sacrificing a lot. And then when my daughter grows up, she'll have empathy because she'll do the same thing. And instead what happened is we had empathy as children and watched what was happening. And we were like, I'm not letting that happen to me. Exactly. I'm not repeating that pattern. And so you have to start thinking that as an Asian woman leader, if you can't You can't rest. You become the same thing where other younger professionals are going to look at you and be like, I'm not doing that.

Rima 38:37

Right.

Minal Bopaiah 38:38

I'm not going to repeat that pattern.

Rima 38:39

And like, I've solved that for my child. I just haven't solved it for me. Well, and you, you haven't. Yeah, I haven't. So, I mean, I, I, I've done better than, in breaking some of the cycles that were passed on to me so i i should say i'm i uh let me reframe that i've done better but i haven't solved it for him because it's his problem to solve

Minal Bopaiah 39:13

but i also think you have you have done it in your personal sphere and not your professional sphere

Rima 39:20

yes that is abso-fucking-lutely true yeah So you can't just fix this for me, Minae? Can I actually do the work myself? I know. Damn it. I can fix it by recommending stuff. Like, isn't there a Trader Joe's version? Like, that's how I fix the cooking part, right?

Minal Bopaiah 39:47

The Trader Joe's version is reflections on a mountain lake.

Rima 39:50

Okay,

Minal Bopaiah 39:50

awesome. Like, I will say that.

Rima 39:52

That totally hits home well.

Minal Bopaiah 39:55

Yeah, because it's somebody who grew up in England. She translates for those of us who have somewhat of a Western mindset in a very effective way. It's not as opaque as some other Buddhist teachings. It's also not as metaphysical. It's much more pragmatic.

Rima 40:12

Oh, awesome.

Minal Bopaiah 40:13

Yeah, and really about your mind and awareness. And like every book, there are things you may or may not agree with. She believes in reincarnation, which I'm not... I sort of believe in reincarnation. I just don't really believe in exploring it that much. I don't think it's really that interesting what past lives you had, you know, and her mother was a spiritualist and had seances. And so she, you know, it can, there are points where you may disconnect from it. There are things that she has said about, I mean, the book is pretty old now. So there are things about mental health that I think might be outdated, but there's a chapter called awareness that I think is the most pragmatic way an illuminating discussion on what is at the heart of Buddhist teachings of mindfulness, really, and what we're really talking about and how to apply that to your day-to-day and what sort of mindset you have to have going in, right?

Rima 41:10

So wait, let's pause because what you said, though, around... the fact that I figured this out in my personal life, but not in my professional life is like the truest aha moment I've had yet period. Well, yeah, I get like, it explains the unevenness of, Like, like, you know, I say work life balance is important, but I've solved for this only in like one half of my life.

Minal Bopaiah 42:00

And I think the pandemic made those lines blur and it's been harder now for us to separate work and life. Like who we are in each sphere.

Rima 42:11

Right. And that's what I really sucked at this even going into the pandemic. Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 42:15

Yeah, well, and that's what I mean about closing out your day is like your professional persona is done. And now it's like your personal persona or your professional sphere, like it has sunsetted and now we're opening up the personal sphere, right?

Rima 42:32

Right.

Minal Bopaiah 42:32

And I think with all of us working from home, that's become a lot more blurred and everything. And so it's harder to see that, oh, I could be. And for me, it was the exact opposite. Like, I don't think I'm much of a people pleaser in my professional world, but an absolute people pleaser in my personal world. And I had to really reckon with that and understand that just because I'm like that at work doesn't mean that that's actually what's happening at home.

Rima 42:57

So interesting that you say that, because I think I'm the reverse of that.

Minal Bopaiah 43:02

Yeah. I mean, you might be, yeah.

Rima 43:04

Well, or I have become, well, because my parents got divorced and so much of my teenage year, like, you know, my adolescence and teenage young adult years was as the eldest, like I mediated all the fight, like I I established boundaries really well in my personal life. Yeah. Just because like to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm done helping try to save this marriage. Yeah. You are now going to send me to boarding school. Yeah. And I get time away from this, which was a lot of us in boarding school. especially all the international school kids. So, so, you know, there, there was a bunch of us, but yeah, like this is a huge aha moment for me. So thank you to this podcast already, like for hitting for, you know, for, for seriously, I'm like, okay, so I've solved for this in my personal life, but I haven't solved for this in my professional life. Yeah. OK, what else do I need to read?

Minal Bopaiah 44:24

Well, no. Well, we're coming up on time. So can I ask you the rapid fire questions? Yes. To get you out so that you don't leave this crying.

Rima 44:32

No, and the crying is stopped. You can see I like I'll do that. Like I'm a fast processor, so I might cry in the middle of bullshit and then I'll move on. All right. Rapid fire questions. What's your favorite book of all time? OK. Maybe The Secret Garden or Little Prince. I don't know.

Minal Bopaiah 44:56

No, two is fine. We'll let you get away with two.

Rima 45:00

Okay.

Minal Bopaiah 45:01

Would you ever want to write a book? And if so, about what?

Rima 45:04

Yes. I've been trying to. Again, in order to do that, you need to find time for yourself. And I haven't done that yet. And I like, I mean, I've outlined the book. It's going to be on leadership.

Minal Bopaiah 45:17

Awesome.

Rima 45:18

And this is something that I started talking about when I was at Bay Path and still teaching.

Minal Bopaiah 45:26

Awesome. I'm waiting to read it. If you could invite an author to dinner, living or dead, who would it be and why?

Rima 45:34

Oh, God. So many cool people. Carlos Bolosan, who is a Filipino author. Uh, and like when I went through my entire processing of identity, I'm like, am I American? Am I Filipino? What does that all mean? Carlos Blasen's book, um, America is in the heart, uh, was one of the first books I read that like helped me piece out identity. Um, but, uh, like actually, um, No. Like, well, that's the intellectual answer. Like the real answer is I want to meet all of the writers who wrote Nancy Drew books.

Minal Bopaiah 46:31

Oh, yeah. All the ghost writers.

Rima 46:33

Yeah. Like that would be like a kick at and to like all of them. Right? Because the books that you and I read growing up were not the same Nancy Drew books that were originally published, where she had an African American nanny, and she was 16, and she had a roadster. You know, so like, that wasn't the version that I... we read in the 70s. Like when I was at Mount Holyoke, like I talked to one of the librarians, because this is how geeky I am, you know, to say, I'm like, do you have original Nancy Drew books that I could read? And like, that totally gave me joy.

Minal Bopaiah 47:16

I think that that may be what you go back to.

Rima 47:20

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 47:23

Okay. And then final question. If you had to guess how many books are in your home?

Rima 47:28

Oh, not enough. Because I switched over to Audible and e-readers. So the question would be, how many books and how much have I paid for my Audible subscription?

Minal Bopaiah 47:48

Yeah, how many are in the e-reader? Oh,

Rima 47:50

God. Too many is, I think, hundreds. Like, hundreds and hundreds of books. Nice. Like the books that I've reread the most are all of the Agatha Christie books. Oh, nice to know. So the one thing that's my go-to, why I love Agatha Christie, because one, all Agatha Christie books are actually love stories in one way or another. But two, I get closure from Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple. They're well-written characters, but there's a beginning, middle, and an end. There's no cliffhangers. Even if there is a character that gets introduced only halfway through the book that was the murderer or whatever, I get closure. I appreciate closure in my life. And I know that's so ironic to say.

Minal Bopaiah 48:57

That might be the pull quote at the beginning of the episode. All right. Thank you so much, Rima. So this was a fun rollercoaster of a ride episode.

Rima 49:08

Like, we knew that, right? Like we knew that I would probably cry and that we would giggle throughout.

Minal Bopaiah 49:14

Well, I mean, yes, I did have a DEI mentor who was like, yeah, you're doing good work if people cry. Like that's like the sign, which is the opposite of most other professions. Don't make, try to not make other people cry at work.

Rima 49:26

So you know who you can always go to to make you feel good. About your work.

Minal Bopaiah 49:32

But I think we got to like the root of some things that, you know, that there's the surface level stuff, but then there's, you know, how you show up in your personal life versus your professional life. the difference between knowing something and doing something. And we talked about the book Burnout by Amelia Nagoski. We talked about Reflections on a Mountain Lake by Jitsuma Tenzinpamo, which are two of my most favorite books. So I'm so happy to recommend them to you.

Rima 50:02

And I think I literally might have burnout next to your book. On my desk behind me

Minal Bopaiah 50:12

. Yeah, that makes me very happy. Thank you. So thank you for being one of the guests on our podcast. It's been a real delight.

Rima 50:24

Thank you, Minal.