But What Will People Say?

Welcome to Book Therapy! 

Rajan, a serial entrepreneur, opens up about the complex emotions of stepping away from the nonprofit he founded. What happens when passion turns to feeling stuck, and how do cultural expectations around achievement shape our self-worth? Through his journey of resignation, guilt, and growth, we explore the tension between maintaining standards and fostering inclusion. Books like But What Will People Say? by Sahaj Kaur Kohli and Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari offer wisdom for processing disappointment and finding self-acceptance beyond our accomplishments.

Transcript

Minal Bopaiah 0:05

. I'm Minal Bopaiah, your host for Book Therapy, the advice podcast for book lovers. Today, my guest is Rajan, a serial entrepreneur and a good friend of mine. He's graciously agreed to be one of my first guests on this podcast and share some of the challenges he's facing. after resigning as CEO of a nonprofit organization that he founded. So Rajen, welcome to Book Therapy.

Rajan 0:42

Thank you for having me

Minal Bopaiah 0:44

me. So I can imagine leaving an organization brings up lots of conflicting feelings. And we should mention to our listeners that this is not a recent event. You resigned your position as CEO two years ago and then subsequently left the board. Can you briefly share with folks what happened and where you are today in terms of processing the grief of this loss and all of the feelings that come with it?

Rajan 1:10

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned that it's not a recent event. And actually, I think though it's framed as a transition, the more I thought about it, it actually... really starts with my own leadership when I was CEO and the transition has been something that I think has left a lot of that unresolved and amplified in some ways. So I can talk about what was going on when I kind of founded the organization and how I went from being extremely just passionate and excited about it to feeling really stuck, guilty about what we were building and why that led to me wanting to transition and then kind of how that transition again amplified some of those challenges. So when I started the organization, it was a deeply personal mission and I had deep conviction and vision because it was from personal experience and I knew that a certain type of learning and education that I experienced would be extremely powerful for the youth that we served. And I had no qualms in asking for money because I thought if we can deliver this type of learning extremely well with the quality that I've seen it and been lucky to be a part of, then I know we'll have great long-term impacts that justify the resources. And we luckily got some early support and really had early successes in building with a lot of people activated by what we were doing. But as we continue to grow, I noticed the tension of not feeling satisfied in the standards or expectations we were meeting. And instead of being able to slow down and really focus on that, we had a lot of pressures, whether it's internal, from funders, from students, to grow and to scale. And as we grew and scaled, I felt that one, our quality of programming was less. But secondly, I noticed there's a lot of tensions of the culture that we were building. And I think some of that is maybe perhaps indicative of the space itself. But I noticed a lot of extremism in the sense that there's good and bad, black and white, and especially if it's anything to do with equity or justice, then people are very ready to draw those extremes and have zero tolerance. However, there wasn't always intellectual honesty or curiosity around exploring those types of situations. And overall, the ability for me to hold the accountability and standard of what quality of education and product I thought would allow us to make that impact, it really decreased. And I noticed that when I held even the most basic expectations, they would often be received with resistance, with claims that that is the oppressive nature itself that we should be fighting and we shouldn't be holding such standards. And ultimately, I think there was a lot of what I call toxic positivity, where our approach, rather than educating and building youth to do the things that I think will help them in the long term, we celebrated them from the moment they stepped in and said they're worthy. And I truly believe one of the biggest assets is we're very clear. You as a human being are deserving of your life and your happiness, and you don't need to conform to be loved. However, we were also trying to say there's different work around how can you develop and become a better student and performer and the type of things that we teach. And for that, we need to have standards, especially when there's money involved. But I felt that we were unable to hold that accountability. And it even transitioned into our team where I couldn't hold accountability, which led me to this. dichotomy of one in my own organization. I was walking on eggshells and was silencing my own truth and desires of what I wanted to build in order to appease. And secondly, I also realized I still had to fundraise in order to pay the payroll for the team that I had brought on. And so I was stuck in this place where when I was pitching to funders, I no longer felt the same excitement and confidence Because it's the fact that I knew we weren't really building towards those standards or vision. Yet I had to ask because I wanted to make payroll. And it got really sticky because that guilt really came into me. Why are we growing? Why are we asking for more? And why, you know, do we deserve this? And are we making a negative impact in some ways? If we're getting a lot of resources, sharing this language and big, bold vision, but not actually executing. And I think one of my leadership challenges was I still stayed positive to my team and to the funders, telling our team, we are doing great work. That's what I thought would inspire them and keep us together and going. And to the funders, I pitched that story because I thought that's what would allow us to actually get those grants and continue to do the work. With my board, however, we were very honest and we knew we're not really meeting the results or expectations. We are growing a lot in size and in budget, but it's almost, obvious that our results and quality of programming is decreasing. So we explored many ways to get out of this, which was my transition exploration. And this actually started back in 2019. We looked at everything from being absorbed into other organizations to sunsetting the organization to the one program that was working or to find a new leader. And ultimately, I became at peace with the idea of a new leader because there was someone internal who had the vision unlike most others in our community who actually understood the craft of what we were building what our product is she was very trusted within the community and her you know background and identities not only i think mean a lot to our community and students but to me felt very I felt very good about being able to transition and hand over this large platform of resources, power and influence to someone like her to decide. And the last thing is she wanted to actually switch our language and say, rather than talking about these high standard metrics, which we're clearly not meeting, I want to talk more about community, about black imagination, about creativity and belonging. And those were the things that I think we really did a good job of over the years as an organization while we failed to meet on the primary thing that I was talking about. And so that made sense. Unfortunately, one week before that transition was to be inked, she had the realization that she didn't want to be CEO because She would be doing administrative things and not the craft or with the community. So in that last week, another teammate had put his hat in the ring. I had suggested we instead sunset. The board thought that this would be a good opportunity. I felt the same, especially because the other person who's supposed to be CEO was going to be leading our programs and really serve in that role and preserve that DNA. I wrote public emails saying that this was our plan all along for him to be the CEO and I was super excited. And in sending those emails, I felt like this transition was supposed to be me releasing from this whole story and I get to be transparent and honest. But now I'm doing again the posturing for the sake of security of the organization. And I didn't like that. And then shortly afterwards, the other team member who was supposed to be CEO She, within a couple weeks, said she had to leave the organization because she couldn't work with the person who is now CEO, which gave me more real red flag alarms of where things were going, and a lot of my fears were, I think, kind of materializing. And then after she left, there were times where the whole team left, and there were a lot of concerns, just to be short of how this leader was leading, Can

Minal Bopaiah 9:21

you actually share the story just to get a little bit more concrete for listeners who may not? I know it's hard to talk about an entire organization that you founded and everything that happened. But just sort of where the friction was, can you share a little bit about with the new CEO, your conversation around payroll and... trying to hold an employee accountable. And because I think that's a good example of, it sounds like what you were trying to balance was these very inclusive, equitable concepts with accountability. And it can be very hard. And I've often said that most people don't know what accountability looks like. They know what public shaming looks like, and they know what it looks like to sweep something under the rug. And I think because I'm familiar with the example, this example of payroll was really, really encapsulated sort of where equity concepts can go awry.

Rajan 10:17

Yeah. And I think it also, for me, captures a, you know, it's one of the many examples where I just look back to and realize why am I feeling so hard to let go. So there was an employee who wasn't not only meeting expectations, but honestly wasn't showing up and wasn't communicating. It was a pattern for months. And so before I transitioned, I told the new leader, let me let this person go because it's not a wise use of our very limited resources. And you don't have to be the bad guy. And he said, No, I think that's too punitive. I want to be restorative. I'm going to work on this one, you know, when I'm leader and try and get him back on track. He tried that for months and it was unfortunately the same thing happening where this employee didn't communicate, didn't show up. And I tried to explain to him, if we have such limited resources and we're paying someone who is not developing the programs he should be for students, letting his teammates down, then we're using money that's a negative impact and we shouldn't do that. And his response was, since he believed fundamentally in universal basic income and in reparations, based on the identity of this person it's actually a positive impact to be paying them which to me again brings up the tension of i don't think that our organization's purpose is this and these are not why we have the resources do we really deserve to keep asking for getting these resources and the hard part sitting on this side is someone else is using my words and my vision and theory of change to get a lot of resources but then isn't actually executing on that instead has a very different model of what equity looks like.

Minal Bopaiah 12:00

Yeah, well, and I'll say that that's not what equity is at all. Just as someone who wrote a book on it, that's actually one of the forms of biases is not giving people of color quality feedback or not holding them to high expectations because you don't think they can meet them. Right. Like that's not what this work is about. And I think that's a real corruption of this work and and also really irresponsible, because like you said, like you are an organization of limited resources. Your mission was never to create a universal basic income for the entire or either organization or the entire city that you were working in. Right. Like and I think. That's also one of the faults, I think, sometimes of this work or one of the ways in which this work goes awry is mission creep and thinking you're going to solve all societal problems through one organization. And you can't, right? Like you have to figure out what's your scope of impact. And to that point, I think your comments about scale are really poignant too. I just spoke at a conference where I kind of, I didn't rant, but I kind of was like, listen, I may not get invited back, but can we talk about the virtue of scale and whether it's actually virtuous, particularly for nonprofits. Like it is a very for-profit mentality. And the reason why for-profit scale is to increase profits, right? Like if you're working in a nonprofit environment and the measurement of success should be impact. And so resources should be used to increase impact, whether that impact is in how much you, like the impact you have on like a small community or whether you want to, disperse that impact around a larger group of people, right? Like it should be impact, not just scale for scale's sake. And I think that's like how business has sort of snuck its way into the language of all fields and all sectors in a very dangerous and pernicious way. So I get all that. So that's all really helpful about like what happened, right? Where are you now? How do you feel about this with some amount of distance?

Rajan 14:18

Yeah. I feel like generally, I think I have the understanding that my self-talk is more critical than what most people would expect. Because when I share this, I feel like I get that feedback often. And the reason I say that is... I feel like regularly I'm celebrated as you've done so well. You've made such impact. How great of you for starting a nonprofit and doing all of this. But I feel like that's just a product of, again, in this space, it is about storytelling and it's not about real measurement often. And I have this guilt that actually I've created a bloated nonprofit that is sucking up resources, not effectively delivering impact, which I truly believe is a net negative harm on the community and especially as someone who is an outsider who has privilege, who's come in to get those resources to build that. It didn't feel good while I was there. And I think the hard part for me is now I'm not there and that fear is amplified. I think we are much more of that. I think we are unaware that we are that. and i am unable to just share so when I was CEO I wanted to share I wanted to just be more transparent and like I did that with my board not with funders or the team um those were leadership decisions I made in the moment and I think i've learned from but I wanted to do that after the transition. And my goal was, let me share this with our new leadership and board so they have the historical context and know what are the challenges and where are we doing well, where are we not, and we can figure out how to address it. When I said I had concerns, it was taken very poorly and I was not given permission to share those concerns to the board and was instead told that The fact that I have concerns makes me a danger to the organization and that I'm overly critical. And immediately before I could even say what the concerns were, there was a gag order where I couldn't speak to any board member or our CEO one-on-one. And then months later was given 20 minutes to share those concerns. And what I realized is I'm not going to be able to share that here. And even though I have seven, eight years of this deep learning from all that we did and learned, that is not going to get to live with the organization. That will live with me and I can take that forward in my life. But the organization wants to kind of start afresh and ignore that part and lean into, again, the things that just give me most concern. And when I see that happening, it makes it really hard for me because I feel that guilt of, again, that's my organization, like my name is attached to it inherently. But also that I want to share the learnings. Like there's so much that we learned about what makes this work hard. The way we got to address it is to address it. And that's, I think, a meta feeling that I have of regret is if you're going into work of social impact, of equity, of high, you know, even emotional charge, you should expect these are intractable. These are complex. These are not easy things. And you will have to have difficult conversations across tension and make mistakes and iterate through. Yet I feel like somehow that the many times cultures in those spaces are not ready for that kind of approach. And it is much more that toxic positivity. You, you know, tell the story. Um, and so I, I, I do carry a lot of guilt that I've created an inefficient organization that represents that. And it's, it's my legacy. Um, Many other people are like, look, you should not feel bad. Many other people have made different decisions with their careers and what they've done, and they're not stressing that. But unfortunately, it is, as you know, it's pretty personally crippling to me where my own mental health isn't good as it was when I was CEO, both because a problem exists, but also because I feel more silenced. and no ability to share those learnings more broadly, which is actually one of the reasons I'm very grateful to be here today and hopefully, you know, make some of that happen.

Minal Bopaiah 18:50

Yeah, well, what I will say is that I don't, I think you first have to look at what was happening with you because what I picked up on when you started speaking about the organization is this, idea that you you know you were going out to funders and telling them like invest in this and even as it started to go bad you were still doing that and you know it's it's natural to have impression management in a job but i think as you know for for the listeners like both Rajan and I are South Asian there's something about the South Asian culture that's very much about impression management like we are only allowed to be successful it's the model minority myth And then if we do anything non-traditional like you and I have done, it's redeemable if we're successful at it. Like we're not allowed to be mediocre at it. And so then we cover up like what we're doing over and over again. And so, you know, getting into the book I would recommend for you, it's actually this book that I've been reading. So I'm doing something unusual and then I'm recommending a book that I haven't completely finished yet. But it's called But What Will People Say? by Sahaj Kaur Koli, who is Punjabi. Yeah, she's amazing. She runs this Instagram account Brown Girl Therapy.

Rajan 20:19

Love it.

Minal Bopaiah 20:20

But the whole first chapter was making me think of you, Rajan, because it's how... It's all about trying to own your narrative and how much as South Asian kids, particularly, we... are trying to live up to being the dutiful child who makes our parents sacrifice worth it and so we do a lot of impression management we do a lot of lying about what's going on I also think we come from a culture that has so much perfectionism that we can never admit that anybody like It is so rare, I think, in the South Asian community for anybody to just vulnerably be able to admit that they got a divorce, they have a kid who's trans, that somebody had cancer. Like we act like all these things are very shameful when they're not. They're just things that happen in life, you know? And we have like this very like pretty veneer that we all come here and we become successful and we get married at the right age and we have no problem having kids and then our kids become successful and they go to medical school and nothing bad ever happens to anybody.

Rajan 21:25

Yeah.

Minal Bopaiah 21:25

Which is not true.

Rajan 21:27

And I'll add to that of, you know, when I talk about these tensions and this extremes that I've noticed. In building an education organization, I was very intentional that my vision of what education should look like is so different than what I grew up with, both being in the American public education system, but also with a South Asian family. And in that world, your grade is your identity and your worth. In that world, mistakes are not good. In that world, it doesn't matter how you feel. It matters what your output is. And those things are just so counter to my fundamental beliefs of what good learning looks like. And the danger was in saying so and saying, hey, I don't want to, you know, have this kind of approach to what education is. We, I think, just, you know, pendulum swung to the other end where it was any measurement is bad. And don't be critical. And setting expectations is not good. And all of these things where I ironically found myself being like, man, I kind of want to bring in someone with a more tiger balm. It's what you shared before. I don't say that I want our kids to do better because they're not worthy if they don't. It's because I know they can do better. I've seen this. I know this craft. I know what they're capable of. If we give them the right resources and experience, they can become change makers and problem solvers in ways they won't even imagine. And that's why I want to set the high standard. But if I did, it's like, hey, you're bringing in that tiger mom, high expectation, that doesn't matter. Why are you celebrating this student? Because they had this outcome when all students, you know, kind of should be celebrated for their value. And that, yeah, I think... Ironically, it's like, yes, I see those things in me. I'm trying to dispel them. And then in some ways, I'm like, wait, I need to bring back some of that because it is not black and white. Like, there's value in the way I was raised and the education I went through, and there's value in a completely different one. The right answer is something in the middle. And, you know, it's not... I and many others who grow up like this end up performing well academically, which leads to long-term benefits. And... I do think some of that culture, though harmful, is responsible for that kind of performance. So how do we actually bring in love and accountability? How do we get both? That's really what this work should be about. And that's what I hope leaders in this space can have, that intellectual honesty to bring in both sides of all the tensions.

Minal Bopaiah 24:10

Yeah. I mean, I think this book, But What Will People Say?, it does a very good job of talking about how most self-help books are really about self-care or self-help and doing what's good for you and not really considering the consequences for your family or the collective. Whereas I think those of us who come from Eastern cultures, that's very hard. And so much of what we do is community care But community care sometimes means that not everybody gets every need met. Right. And so it's asking very smart questions. And it talks about how, yeah, like we were all like most of us were given like food, clothing, shelter. We were provided for and we were nurtured academically, but we weren't nurtured emotionally. Like we weren't nurtured for what do we do when we feel conflicted? What do we do when we're angry? How do we have those conversations? How do we hold somebody else accountable? How do we hold ourselves accountable? Because it's never about accountability. It's did you get the A, right? It's not like, did you study? Did you hold yourself accountable to like what your process of learning? It's did you get to the outcome, right? And so I think that there is... I think there's a lot in this book that will help you sort of like unpack what were the good things and what were the bad things. And also it talks about emotional maturity and often many of us weren't emotionally nurtured because our parents weren't emotionally nurtured because they weren't even physically nurtured because, you know, they were coming from such poor environments where food, clothing, shelter, education were hard to come by, nevermind emotional support or emotional nurturance, right? And so it's that emotional neglect, I think, leads us to be somewhat disadvantaged when we're faced with situations like this. Although I also have to say, Rajen, what you did in founding this organization and leading it, like this was a very complex project. And I think one of the things that is missed about both diversity, equity, inclusion work and any sort of progressive, like social justice oriented work progressive change work is that it requires an exceptional amount of emotional maturity and complexity. And most people don't have that in general in the world, right? And most people go into nonprofits, I think, because America has this myth of follow your passion, right? And that that will make you happy. And Cal Newport has written a great book called So Good They Can't ignore you about like the fallacy of just following your passion for having a good life. But because so many people believe that, then it feeds into this toxic positivity and things like that. And people can't do really hard things. But I also don't think people realize it's going to be really hard when they start it, right? And like, and so I think you have to sort of give yourself a pass on trying something remarkable and having mixed results. And you're going to learn from it. And how can you be okay with your takeaways, even if the organization never gets them, right? Even if the greater public never gets them, you can't control that. But the fact that you're learning from it means the next thing you do is going to be even more impressive and impactful in a real way.

Rajan 27:39

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think especially, you know, sitting on the other end of everything There's so much learning and just replaying a lot of the situations and how I showed up and what happened and what were the incentives at play. And I think a lot about when I'm in situations like this again, which I know I will be, I'm going to have so much more, I think, maturity or understanding of how to navigate that and confidence that I'm going to be much more intentional of how I navigate it rather than appeasing others.

Minal Bopaiah 28:15

Yeah. Well, and also it's okay if you never put yourself in a situation like this again. Also, like, I just want to be like, if you're like, I'm done with this whole entrepreneurship stuff. And like, I just want to, you know, lead a different life. Like that's okay too. And I think that that, you know, I just did a session with a bunch of Asian Americans and I was like, how do you give yourself permission to not fit into the myth, the model minority myth, to not fit into the expectation of excellence, right? Like how do you give yourself permission to be like mediocre and happy?

Rajan 28:58

I'll tell you my honest thought of hearing that. And I think this means it's very deeply ingrained in me. But I'm like, I don't want to be mediocre. Like, I would not be satisfied. I'm sure there's a lot of the external thing. And I think that's probably what's shaped my own internal lens. But my gut reaction is, oh, God, I don't want to be mediocre. Like, I want to do great things. And I want to be excellent. And I want to do things that matter. But I also hear you that that approach is probably like i'm stuck in this because i'm so regretful for the ways i didn't really succeed and that's not healthy i should probably be celebrating the great successes and impact we had taking my learnings for what they are and and feeling more positive than negative about the experience but i think it's it has been challenging for me to do that just given how things have unfolded and kind of what i see is continuing so

Minal Bopaiah 29:52

I'll amend what I said because if your gut reaction is, I don't want to be mediocre, I think pursuing excellence is a worthy goal and a good virtue. What I'll say is this. How do you make it okay to be perceived as mediocre? Even if you know you're excellent at something. Even if you're in the pursuit of excellence, but the rest of the world thinks you're mediocre at it. how do you become okay with that? Right? Like, that's, I think, the real test of, you know, your virtues, your values, your purpose, I think, are what you want to do when nobody's looking.

Rajan 30:39

Yeah. And that, I will say, in my career, I have faced that breaking of the mold for our community where I've... Been lucky to graduate from elite institutions. And then I've done two nonprofit startups that have had good impact, but not traditional measures of success. And as I hear, I'm actually reframing that. Even how I approach it myself, I don't think it's solely about excellence or being the best because there's not anything I'm really the best at but it is again that growth it's like as long as I feel like I'm getting better and not either just being at this comfortable floating along which is where I felt I was for a long time or actively you feel like hey we're not improving which means you're getting worse that is what I want and surrounding myself with people who are better than me at the things is the way to get it right. Like when I play sports, I always want to play with people who are better. Going to college, that's, you know, when I went to college was an experience for me where I was like, oh, in high school, I really felt was like to be the best. And that is, I was extremely quickly humble. At first, it was jarring of, oh, my God, I'm not good enough. I'm not like, this is bad. I'm only used to being the best. And then I realized, I'm not the best here. But I've learned so much more here than I learned when I was the best. And I'd rather just be surrounded by this and keep growing and learning. And it's clear I'm never going to reach the people above me. But as long as I'm surrounded by them, like, I will just keep being lifted up. And that's really what I want to chase.

Minal Bopaiah 32:16

Yeah. Well, I think that's a good thing to chase. I'm not against that in any way. All right. We're out of time. But before we go, our rapid fire questions. for all of our guests and bibliophiles. So what is... Do you have a favorite book of all time? Fiction or nonfiction?

Rajan 32:38

I can't say I do, but I will say that a book... that has impacted me a lot recently is Sapiens.

Minal Bopaiah 32:46

Oh, yeah! My cousin loves that. I haven't read it. I feel like all the men have read this book. I am yet to hear a single woman recommend this book, but every dude I know recommends this book.

Rajan 32:54

Really? Well, yeah. I really appreciate it because it's an insight into just not only humans and how we work and so much of all my reflections. I think one of the things when I was a less mature leader I would take things personally because someone said it about me and they're saying my name and I did this. But then you realize we're all just humans. And you know, this is like, these are very human things. This is the system. These are the incentives. Um, and it, it gives a good understanding of humans, but also humanity. Like what, what have we learned across our entire history? Um, so I really liked that one.

Minal Bopaiah 33:31

If you, would you ever want to write a book

Rajan 33:35

in college? I would, My biggest dread was when I had to write papers and I would procrastinate for as long as I could. So my gut reaction is that sounds like a big chore. But as you know, I love talking and have no shortage of things to say. So I feel like the answer is a maybe. I probably wouldn't want to be the one behind the typewriter typing it, but there's a lot of ways now where you can get your ideas out into a book.

Minal Bopaiah 33:59

I think you would be a good subject of a book.

Rajan 34:02

Well, it's funny because if you were to ask me what book I would write, I would say, I want to write about all the people I've been lucky to meet because I feel like in many journeys of my life, rather than talking about the journey or from my perspective, I feel like there are individuals whose stories are way more powerful and actually will highlight some of what I would want to share. Like, what did I learn in that journey? It's actually look at this person and what they've done and how they're showing up, etc.

Minal Bopaiah 34:25

That's really, that's a good idea. Yeah. I'm sure there's like a company out there trying to create books that'll like pitch you, like they'll write that for you. If you could invite an author to dinner, living or dead, who would it be and why?

Rajan 34:38

James Baldwin, probably. He, his writing, and I read a lot more, you know, through my leading building of this organization, which was all extremely relevant, but he has a way with words where he can take the most complex crazy tension this that and like put it in a sentence where you get goosebumps and it like somehow clearly communicates all of the tension and what the core really is um and he just has so much confidence in himself and intellectual honesty and like that's you know when i think about hey this is what our space needs it's people like that because he is as strong um as many are but he's not just, you know, openly saying things without a real thesis or belief in logic behind it.

Minal Bopaiah 35:31

Yeah. He has real depth to what he's saying. It's not platitudes at all. Yeah. If you had to guess, how many books are in your home?

Rajan 35:39

So as I said, I've only done entrepreneurship. So I never went through the consulting training that many of my peers did. And I feel like they'd have very good ways to estimate that number. I'd probably say like I don't know, 300 or something, but...

Minal Bopaiah 35:56

Yeah.

Rajan 35:57

And I won't share what percent of that I've read. I'll just tell you how many...

Minal Bopaiah 36:00

I know, that should be this follow-up question, right? I feel like I'm just asking people this question and feel better about my house. Like, that's really my motivation for this question. I was like, everybody has more than me, right? Or, like, am I particularly disturbed? All right, well, that is the end of our time together. Thank you, Rajen. So it was... I really appreciated how... honest and candid you were, I think very few entrepreneurs are. I think even fewer within the progressive space about talking about some of the challenges when you're trying to apply these concepts to like difficult situations. I do think that really be the right book for you to like help you process what you've been going through where the roots may have come from from either your family experience or your cultural experience but then also growing up in the states right like those conflicting values um and um what else did we cover and do we want to say about that i think that's I feel like you and I could talk for a very, very long time about all the aspects of this. And I'm sure we will have additional conversations. But is there any thing left that you feel you want to say about your experience or any questions that you have or parting thoughts?

Rajan 37:28

Yeah, maybe a question if I can put you on the spot. And you know this, that... The other challenge about the space that I'm in right now where I am in some ways still lamenting the past or, you know, my mental space is caught up in that and it's not great thoughts or feelings. I get really frustrated because I feel like it's stripping me from being my best self. And I know how awesome and productive and valuable I can be. I know what kind of like activation and zest for life I can feel when I'm in that space. And right now, it's really hard to feel like that Rajan isn't here. And I just don't know if you've got any thoughts, advice, books or not on how to get back to my best self.

Minal Bopaiah 38:21

So the company that I founded, Brevidine Wit, we have a new download on 42 inclusive behaviors that can't get you fired or be outlawed. And... The first, which is what we were talking about, is manage your emotions in a productive manner. The last is affirm the worth of every human being, regardless of whether they are productive, profitable, or perfect. And I think for you... There are two ways of dealing with what you're dealing with. There is the way that most like business consultants will tell you on like, what are your lessons learned and how can you like go through a grieving process and how can you like take things away from this? The other way of dealing with this, which is much, much deeper, but I think lasts, it has a much more positive impact on your life overall, is how can I affirm my worth even if I don't produce anything or do anything great? I remember the story of somebody who was fighting with her boyfriend and he was being really mean to her and was like, you know, you're really, I don't know what he said. It was kind of just mean and like that she was worthless or something. And she's like, listen, like, I can be screaming like a banshee and there can be like feces on the wall and I'm still worth something. And I think that that is so countercultural to feel like we are worth something even if we don't produce something, even if we don't achieve something. And who are you if you don't achieve something? And I think that's what's being presented with you right now is this much harder, question of who is Rajan without achievement and it's a scarier question that most people choose not to answer and they just buckle up and get back into the hamster wheel of achievement rather than really sit with it but i think when you do sit with it you end up becoming a much more compassionate and loving person a much wiser person and And you become somebody that other people see as safe and trustworthy when you can do that for yourself.

Rajan 41:06

I've got some work to do on that front, but I appreciate it.

Minal Bopaiah 41:08

Thank you, Rajan, so much. Thank you for being one of my first guests. I really appreciate it. And yeah.

Rajan 41:19

Thank you, not only for this conversation, but for supporting me throughout the journey. Yeah, my pleasure.